Amy Gallo: How to Work with Anyone

On today’s episode, Daniel Goleman and Amy Gallo discuss Gallo’s new book, Getting Along: How to Work with Anyone (Even Difficult People). This is a must listen for anyone who has ever had a job. Gallo identifies eight types of difficult people and shares how you might deal with insecure managers, passive aggressive people and other folks who keep us up at night. 

Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com

Transcript

Daniel Goleman: 0:58

Hello, and welcome to first person plural is a Daniel Goleman. And I'm delighted to be talking to someone I admired for years. Amy Gallo. Amy's expertise is in managing conflict effective communications, the dynamics of the workplace, which is what we're going to focus on today. And what I love about Amy among many things, not just her wonderful writing, but she really combines rigorous research with practical advice.

Unknown: 1:27

She's written the Harvard Business Review Guide to dealing with conflict. She's a contributing editor to the Harvard Business Review. co host of HBr is Women at Work podcast. And before joining HBr, she was a management consultant. She's worked in many places, she knows what she's writing about her new book, which we're going to focus on today is getting along how to work with anyone, even difficult people. And Amy, I have to say, this is a question I'm so often asked, What can I do about this difficult coworker, or this difficult boss? So let's get into it systematically. I'd like to really just march through points you make in your book? And because I think it covers the topic, so Well,

Amy Gallo: 2:19

first of all, why does it matter? To get along with people at work? What difference does it make? That's a great place to start. And Dan, I just want to say thank you for having me. And, and thank you for for inviting me to have this conversation, you seem to be the perfect person to talk about this book with just your your insight. And research, obviously, is underlying so much of what I've covered in the book. So

Unknown: 2:43

you know, one of the things we know is that people work better, they do better, they're more satisfied, more engaged, more productive, when they have friends at work. And even, you know, Gallup has shown for years, having a best friend at work has all of these positive influences. And yet, what I find is that it's not the close friendships, I have that keep me up at night, right? It's these difficult colleagues and difficult interactions. And what we know, you know, from lots of research is that those negative interactions really wear us down, they cause stress, they hinder our productivity, they cause us to disengage, they make us want to leave our jobs. You know, they make us want to just not do as much work and as high quality work as we would if we weren't getting along with everyone we work with what goes on in your brain when you're not getting along with. So yeah, so the this is very much based on a lot of a lot of your work around amygdala hijack, what we see happens when when we encounter stress, there is no doubt that when we have a negative interaction with someone, we go into that stress response that that fight or flight amygdala hijack. And because we perceive it as a threat, we see it as a threat to harmony with our coworkers, we've maybe see it as a threat to our resources at work to our identity, often to our ego. But you know, I pride myself on than seeing myself as someone who gets along with lots of people who sees the best in everyone. So when I have a negative interaction, it challenges that sense of who I am. And it's not just difficult because I want to get the project done or have a strong relationship with this person. But because I have to reflect on weak, am I someone who gets along, you know, and I share, I share a story in a book up in the book about an author who sent me this email that was just I had sort of tried to set some boundaries with him around my time. And he did not like that, and sent me an email that said, you know, the most important thing in the world is human connection. And I'm gonna take my writing elsewhere. And I spent several nights in a row up at 3am You know, wearing myself down thinking boy, am I someone who values human connection, that is he right Am I you know, and, you know, cycling through all of these emotions of anger and regret and despondency and, and, you know, self doubt, and that took its toll physically because I wasn't sleeping, but also emotionally. It was it was a source of stress. And that's really what I see. When I know people I interviewed for the book about their interactions with difficult co workers is that it just, it really causes a lot of noise, both emotionally but also physically in our in our brains and our minds. You know, the big dylla hijack is from my original book Emotional intelligence. And since then they've done new work on the amygdala, they find that it's very interwoven with what's called the salience network salience means what's important to us right now? What do we need to pay attention to? So when you wake up at three in the morning, thinking about that guy, and that email, it's your salience network. It's saying, okay, pay attention, work this out. So can you talk a little about the difference between rumination and problem solving? Yeah, yeah. And there's a term that Alice boys, another author has introduced me to called problem solving, pondering right problem solving. Ponderosa, you're actually, when I'm up at 3am, there is the sort of negative version of that rumination where I'm really stuck. And it's, and I, the first few nights, it I was really going down a spiral where the thought process was, he's right. Oh, my gosh, I'm not a good person. I handled that all poorly, right? It becomes that self flagellation, as opposed to where I eventually got in, on like, the third or fourth night, which is like, Okay, well, what do I want to do differently? Now that I've gotten this email now that I've gotten this feedback? What do I want to do differently? Instead of focusing on him, focusing on what, what I could learn? And it might have been, you know, I wrote all of these snarky emails back to him in my mind, I never send think thankfully. But you know, that, that that's sort of the rumination I had to go through to get to the place where I could actually be in a learning mindset, a curious mindset about okay, well, what does this actually mean, for me as a person? And maybe even for my interaction, not with him? Because we truthfully haven't interacted? Since I don't think we will. But with my interaction with other people who are in a similar role that he's he's in or it with my colleagues, who, who we exchanged emails all day long, what does it say about how I want to behave differently going forward? That reminds me, you know, in the emotional intelligence model, there are four parts self awareness, self management, empathy, social skill, and it seems that the first two parts, being aware of what's going on inside you, and then figuring out how to handle it is really crucial. So what do you think is the role of self awareness or self compassion in this process? Yeah, and it's actually I can't I think about your model a lot. And it's hard to imagine any part of the model that's not connected to these interactions, right to the need to get along and interact, interact with others, but in particular, around self awareness. You know, I, my first instinct, when I'm I get a negative email, or I have a negative interaction with someone is, either I'm bad, they're bad, or This is hopeless, right. And that those that's not a very self aware, you know, it's a reactive way to think about these these negative interactions. And I think the self awareness is really thinking, Okay, well, what's what actually, does this mean to me? Why am I feeling this instinct to point out who's right and who's wrong? Why am I going down that that path? What is this bringing up for me? And, you know, for that email from that, that man, it might have been that I didn't feel like I was responsive enough to other folks who actually did matter. And so, okay, let me let me think about that for a moment of, is he pointing out something that I already feel insecure about? You know, is he reminding me of a family member who's equally abrupt, that's that has caused me emotional harm over the years, right? Like there's all of these moments of, because it's never really just about that interaction. But it's about all of the moments in your life that have made that interaction. Difficult, right, or triggering in that way. So that, to me is how I see self awareness come in. How do you? I mean, do you see it play a different role? Well, it strikes me that you're really reflecting on your own role in the troubling relationship. are you contributing to it somehow? Or why is this a trigger for you at all? Yeah. Maybe in your past? Is this bringing up? And is it symbolically about some other relationship? I think that's very profound. That's definitely self awareness. Yeah. Well, and I, and it's, you know, it's, you're pointing out something about the book that I, that I'm very proud of, but also slightly conflicted about which is that it requires people who who are going to take the advice in the book, to be the, you know, quote, unquote, adult in the room, right to do this hard work of emotional intelligence, taking, you know, self awareness, emotional self control. And you're actually I'm asking people to do that when They are being harmed. And I think that's, that can be really complicated. Because it's there is someone else who's, you know, behaving badly, causing you stress, challenging you. And it's very easy to become laser focused on how inappropriate their behavior is how wrong they are. And oftentimes those things are true. But that won't change the situation. You know, it really, and I remember interviewing you for an article I wrote years ago about how to work with someone you don't like. And I think you I, I'm not gonna remember the exact quote, but you said, you know, you, the only thing you can control are your reactions to the situation. And so I really, that's really one of the basic tenants of the book is that you're not gonna be able to force this person to change. But you can change the way you think about them the way you interact, you can reflect on your reactions to their behavior, which will change your emotional state, and therefore, how you want to react to the person. Almost all of the tactics in the book don't require sort of a confrontation they do. They're really about trying to draw that person into a collaborative, cooperative discussion or modeling behavior you wish you would see. So it shouldn't worsen some of those dynamics. The one thing I will say, is that I do think most people when they are dealing with someone who is more senior than them, focus on the downsides of calling out the behavior or have, you know, the risks of speaking up. And I think what we often don't think about are the risks of not speaking up. And are those greater than the risks of challenging this person in authority? Now, you need to be realistic, there are risks usually of challenging someone who has authority. But are those are? Are they realistic? And are they greater than the risks of not doing anything? Well, I think also you're advised to use an indirect challenge, which is more like an invitation. The most appropriate mode more often, when you're dealing with the superior. Yeah, yep. And, and, you know, people, people really hesitate to to directly confront people of authority, and for good reason, you know, I think we often see the those the people take retaliate, and or not even retaliate, I mean, it's not even, you're gonna get fired for telling your boss that you disagree with them, it's more often that you're going to experience reputational damage that's going to harm your career over the long term. But as you said, Dan, I think if you invite them into a conversation about how do I handle this specific thing, or how do we work better together? How can what can I do differently to make sure we work better together? That that's a different use? I wonder, Amy, if you can sometimes position it? As you know, your boss's success depends on you. And your team? How can I how can I help you do better? In this situation? Yeah. Yep. And I and people do really, that's like classic managing up skills, right of like, I, I need to be helping my boss succeed, I need to be thinking about what their goals are. And a lot of times when your boss is insecure, or passive aggressive, or, you know, demeaning in some way or that, that we just think, Oh, why would I help this person? Right? Why, why? Why would I care about whether they succeed if they're so awful to me? And the truth is, was insecure, folks, if you can actually show them, you're on their side, oftentimes, a lot of that behavior will, I won't say go away, but will improve, right? Because then then you're seen as an ally, instead of a threat. That's really important. Well, before we get into what to do, which I think is a wonderful part of your book, let's hear about the types. You talked about eight common types, difficult people. Yeah. And I'd love to get your take on it. You know, what are the three or four most common types? Can you destroy about each? Yeah, of course. So the the eight types, just to be clear, not a mutually exclusive. You know, this is not a categorization like in MBTI serve, you know, assessment, or I think this is just descriptions of the common archetypes that I heard about in my work that people were encountering most often. And, you know, the ones up there's eight of them, and there's I'll point out a few that I think are most relevant for folks. One is the insecure manager. I can't tell you how many times I hear about bad bosses and it might I see that they're incompetent, it might be that they're toxic. And I think a lot of it at the end of the day comes down to the fact that some managers feel insecure. And so I really focused on that that archetype. It reminds me of the so called the imposter syndrome, which is extremely surprisingly widespread among the managerial class and professional class. People feel that they're faking it, or that they'll be found out. They don't really have what it takes, which of course, would make you feel very insecure. Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's absolutely human to feel insecure. In fact, a good you know, good dose of insecurity makes us huge, you humble, it makes us self reflective. If you weren't, if you're if you have zero insecurity, you're sort of veering into the psychopaths territory, right? Like, you have to have a little bit of self doubt. The problem is, I think a lot of people, especially when they get into positions of power, as you point out, go into that imposter syndrome, where they're really self doubting what they're, you know, what they're capable of. And they take, they often take that out on the people they manage, I think that one reason that I've observed that this happens is that people tend to be promoted to the level of incompetence, which is to say, You were such a good individual contributor, we're gonna make you head of the team ahead of the division. And all of a sudden, your leadership skills matter. And you've never had to use them before. In fact, you don't even know what they are, you know, about people being promoted to the level of incompetence. One of the things I really admire, actually about my husband, he is an individual contributor in his role. He's been at the organization longer than anyone else on the team, there have been opportunities for him to step into a managerial role. And he is every time said, it's not what I want to do. And, and I think that it's, you know, it's just such a smart move for him, because for a variety of reasons I won't get into, but I think it really, he was so clear on the challenge of what that would present for him as an individual, that even though it would mean more money, maybe more risk, more responsibility, maybe more prestige. He's just been very clear eyed about the fact that that's not what he wants to do every day is interesting to me, You know what, I'm doing a book with Carrie Chernus, who has been co director of the Consortium on for research on emotional intelligence organizations, and we're looking at 20 years of research, that makes it very clear that emotional intelligence for the leaders can be developed. And it's really important for an emotionally intelligent organization to put time and effort into that, and to give people the chance to do it, because so many people need to do it. And so when you talked about the insecure boss, that that could be a common factor. That's right. So what what are some more other types? Yeah. Do you want to hear about, I can always tell whenever I give a talk about conflict, I can almost time it say I always say the the first second or third question in the q&a will be how to deal with someone who's passive aggressive. It's it is the, you know, really the question I get most often. And that that's one again, you know, I tried to normalize in the book, I also exhibited a lot of these behaviors myself, sometimes I have been passive aggressive, I have acted insecurely, maybe what does passive aggressiveness look like? How can you tell someone hat is following that pattern? Yeah, it's so I actually in the research for the book found out that the term was first coined, in the 1920s, to describe soldiers in the military who would not comply with direct orders. So they would they would agree, yeah, sure, I'll do that. And then they would just resist and not do it. The term has a long history and has been part of the DSM then taken out. And, you know, it's not an official diagnosis, which makes sense. But it's typically in what we see in the workplace. Is it someone who says yes, in a meeting, but then doesn't follow through. It's someone who insists that they're fine, even though they're displaying body language that shows they're upset or they're angry. You know, in our mutual friend Annie McKee calls it, you know, it can feel like shadowboxing that you're actually you're trying to sort of land on facts and data, but they're just constantly avoiding. And that's really what's at the base of a lot of the passive aggressive behavior is the fear of conflict. So they're actually trying to avoid conflict for one reason or another. They don't feel like they can be direct and straightforward about their thoughts and feelings. So might be fear of failure. You know, it might be a desire to be perfect. And a lot of that is underlying that behavior. And it's one of the archetypes that I honest They find the most challenging to deal with review what dealt with someone like that. Can you tell us about someone? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I actually, in early in my career, I was in a, on a team, or someone who had been with the organization at the beginning of it had left, and then was coming back. And everyone said, spoke about her so highly, and I thought, Oh, this is going to be great, I'm gonna get to work with this person. And immediately, I just got the sense that we didn't hit it off. And I'm sure I felt a little intimidated by her given her reputation, I think she really felt a strong need to prove reprove herself since she was rejoining the organization. And what I would find is that she would have this big smile on her face and meetings, she would give these compliments that sounded a little empty, but then I'd find out that she was talking about me, to my boss, to my colleagues, right? And it felt very few times I said, Can we sit down and, and talk? And she'd be like, why everything's fine. You know? And it was just this, everything's fine. What do you mean, feeling that, you know, I knew something was not right. And, and I never actually, this, I didn't have any of the skills that I advocate for in the book at the time, because it was really early in my career. And I never found a way to get along with her. I never found a way to connect with her. And I regret it. I wish I could go back in time, and really sort of understand a little bit more about why she was behaving that way and what I was doing to make it because she wasn't behaving this way with others. And that was really a sign for me. Was she the type you call a political operator? She was so she and this is a good point. So the archetypes in the book. They're not we don't all none of our colleagues fall neatly into one category. They're usually a hot mess of several the archetypes. Right. And so she was very much a political operator cared a lot about her career, cared a lot about being seen as someone who's very valuable to the organization and was willing to play office politics in a way that harmed others. As long as she benefited, right, she didn't she didn't care so much that we would sort of be the shrapnel in that those efforts. I would assume a political operator would do things like to credit for other people's work, or backbite. Negatively viciously actually about other people. Yeah, gossip is a big piece of that that the political operators tool kit, you know, gossip, like even lying, right? I think and you see this with passive aggressive nests, too, is that when you try to pinpoint someone needs as a political operator the passive aggressive on I noticed you're doing this right, they'll often be like, No, I'm not. No, no, you know, you took credit for that, that work that we worked on together that project No, it didn't I give you credit, and then you're you're thinking, Wait, did I you know, the self doubt starts to come in of like, Wait, did I not see that correctly? Sounds like gaslighting yes, there's there's a big part of gaslighting in both the passive aggressive and I think the passive aggressive peer, it's often inadvertent gaslighting. I think with the political operators, sometimes it's very intentional for them in order to help them get ahead. One of the worst types, I think on on your list is The Tormentor who has no empathy for the victim. Yeah, the tormentor is, you know, I really had in mind actually a boss that I once had, which is someone who I really looked up to, I was excited to work for her. And I found that she, every time we, I was looking to her for guidance, or, you know, sort of was, was hoping that there would be some connection between us, she was just re emphasizing all of the sacrifices she made, and really just was sort of saying over and over, you haven't earned it yet. You haven't. And you have, you have to earn it by doing these, you know, by not spending time with your family by accepting a lower paid job by you know, just these all of these sacrifices that she had made by choice. I will point out that she wanted me to also make not by choice, because she felt it was how you earned your way and in that organization, or in that, that industry. And, you know, the term tormentor, actually was suggested to me by a colleague on LinkedIn who said, you know, it's someone who expect to be a mentor, but they actually just keep on kicking and kicking. And so you're, you're suffering their abuse. When you're thinking Lee, I thought you were going to be a friend. I thought you were going to be a sponsor and ally, and it can feel that much worse because of it. Then there's a type that seems on another dimension that no at all. Yeah, who you you can't tell anything to, I suppose. Yeah. And just how it seems to have all the facts and data and you know, really, this is the first person who speaks up in every meeting, right? They might talk over you, they might not take any, you know, they raise their voice if you try to speak up, you know, I'll admit this is the archetype identify most with I have been accused of being a node at times, and this is the trait of the No at all that that I most identify with is the saying something with such certainty that there's no room for disagreement, right. And I'd have done that, I do probably still do that, where sometimes you just say it, like, as if there's, there's no other interpretation of this situation. And it's, can be so detrimental to the people around you, especially people who do have some humility, do want to see things from multiple perspectives. They just feel completely bulldozed by these by these know it alls, who, you know, who, who feel like they have just an abundance of confidence. And they're, they're just willing to display that, is that does that have to do also with another type, the, the person who is biased and doesn't see their bias or some relation because I think that the nodal just is so focused on their perspective and their own own experience, they can't imagine that they would bring in bias or they can imagine that it would matter, right? They're like, Well, I'm doing so well. I know, I'm such an expert on this, it doesn't matter if I have a few flaws. Like these, these biases, I mean, the bias coworker is another one that's incredibly difficult to deal with. And truthfully, we all hold biases, right? But the bias coworker is someone who does not care, and does not self reflect they have none of the self awareness that that's required an EI, to recognize that we all hold biases and prejudices, but they're just willing to sort of let all that seep out, make, you know, microaggressions, bias comments, and get really defensive, and then sometimes truly, really awful. In response to any challenging of that behavior, you have an example from your own working life. The bias type, well, I have a real inadvertent example, which actually didn't make it into the book. But but it's something that, you know, something that actually made a big impression on me and my work life, which was that I was working, it was a colleague who were working on a team. And we were trying to choose images to go with with a piece of writing, the image we chose, included some depictions of people of color. And she made a comment on the attributes of the those depictions, and said, I just don't think this is realistic. But it was incredibly dismissive of the the reality of how people actually look. And I, to be fair, did not think of her, I thought of her comments as dismissive but not biased. And there was another colleague of mine, a woman of color, who reached out to me and said, I feel like those comments were really inappropriate. And I, you know, sort of opened my eyes to Oh, wow, yeah, that was actually quite late and laden with bias. Now, the colleague who made these comments, I think, had did not have the self awareness. And to know that that's how those comments were coming off, and that she was sort of exhibiting some, some racial bias. So I think it's not just self awareness, I noticed most of these types of lack empathy. They don't understand how their behaviors landing on the person, like bias type, is you don't perceive the pain you're creating, or how the cringe or whatever it is, the other person is back. Well, and how many times have you heard in response, and this is actually when I asked when I did talk to this colleague, this was the response I got, which was, Well, that wasn't my intention. And right, that's just the clear lack of empathy of like, well, it in a way, your attention doesn't really matter. Because what landed was this, and you did cause harm, you did cause stress and anxiety with that comment. And you did, you know, violate a sense of inclusion for that, that people feel welcome and comfortable. In, in this team or in this workplace. One of the hallmarks of a high performing team, my colleague, Vanessa dress cat has found is a sense of belonging. And a lot of these types are telling you in different ways you don't belong. That's right. And I think that's, they erode psychological safety, they erode a sense of belonging. Right? They, so it's not and that's really if you're a manager, you have a responsibility to act on some of these be Hey viewers some of these archetypes because you even just one person on the team who displays some of these actions or these characteristics can really quickly make that sense of belonging evaporate. Well, having said that, let's pivot to what you can do. We're not helping. Yeah, we're out of a system. And if one part of the system changes very often, that will reverberate through the whole system, you talk about principles to get along with anyone. Tell us about some of those. Yeah, we've been talking about some of them, just to sort of tangentially already. I mean, one of I'll point out a couple that I really, that I find quite useful is one is that your perspective is just one perspective, right? That there's there, you do have to remember the way you're seeing the situation is influenced by who you are, and by you or where you sit, and your upbringing and background and identity factors. And so you may see someone behaving passive aggressively, and just say, that is absolutely inappropriate, right? That's not acceptable behavior. And someone might say, actually, no, this has worked really well for me. And, you know, I'm, I'm from a culture where we don't address conflict directly. And so this is one way to actually get my needs met. And so you have to remember that there's this concept in social psychology called naive realism, which is that we believe when we want that the way we say things is, right. And if someone disagrees with us, they're clearly wrong. Right? There's no other explanation. So one of the key things when getting along with people or dealing with someone who's causing you stress or, you know, having you're having a negative dynamic with is to remind yourself, there are other ways to see this other than your viewpoint, right, try to try to develop some of that empathy, certain, certainly social awareness of what's the context in which you're, you're interacting in. You know, one of the other principles I want to point out, is experimentation. And I think this is really, this pulls on a lot of the emotional intelligence competencies of trying out solutions. So I share a lot of tactics based on the each of the archetypes is to try one of the tactics and try to commit to trying it for two weeks or a month. See how, for example, give an example. Yeah, yeah. So let's, let's say with the passive aggressive peer, for example, you've had no luck in getting them to actually follow through on the things they commit to in meetings. Right. So you might agree that you're going to apply a little positive peer pressure. And as a team set up norms, right, and you don't have to be the leader of the team, you can be anyone on the team who says, you know, I was thinking we should we should agree on how we want to follow through on commitments we make in the meeting, and, you know, let's agree that we'll write it down, we'll share the email afterwards. And when someone's not able to do that they're required to, to speak up and say, I can't do it. Right. So you might try that for a month and see, does that actually change your passive aggressive behavior, your peers behavior? Or does that just sort of fall through, they continue to not show up to the meeting, or they continue not to follow through on what they committed to? And which case? Okay, so now, the question is, Okay, that didn't work. What's another tactic? I can try? And again, another example for for someone who says, oh, yeah, I'll do that. And then and then never follows through is you can actually address that directly, you know, and say, you know, you've said three times that you'll do this, each time you don't, what do you need in order to follow through on your commitments, right? And again, with the passive aggressive person who say that you might say, Oh, if I can find out, no, I don't need you know, but you're trying out different tactics, learning what you can find them seeing what works, and then pivoting what I see too often. And I've done this myself is the someone tries something, right? They say, Oh, well, I have this, let's, let's say the political operator, right? I've tried to agree on sharing crab, we're going to share credit at the beginning of the project so that they don't steal credit at the end. Right? And they say and it didn't work. So then they just throw up their hands and they're like, I'm like, Okay, well, you tried one thing. You tried it one thing once. And let's let's think about what else you can try. Because these are, these are iterative interactions that you need to, you need to learn from try out, you know, experiment with in the book, you quote, Viktor Frankl, talking about widening the gap between stimulus and response and other psychologists have defined maturity as lengthening the gap between your impulse to act and what you actually do. And in school programs where they're teaching these skills. There's a poster was developed by Roger Weisberg at Yale years ago. The poster two It picks a stoplight. And it says, when you're upset, remember the stoplight red light, stop calm down and think before you act, yellow light, think of a range of things you could do and what the consequences would be green light, pick the best one and try it out. And I think the advice you're giving is a variation on this. And not only that, you're giving people the gift of here's six things you can try. Yes, yes. Well, and here's six and then keep track, right? What did I try? What didn't work, right? And you're learning like, it's you have growth mindset is fundamental in implementing any of this, because you have to remember, you have to both have a growth mindset about yourself, right? I can learn I can try different tactics, I can integrate the behaviors that work, get rid of the ones that don't, but you also have to have growth mindset about the other person, the the willingness and belief that they're going to, they can change. And when you believe that about someone, I mean, I think we, we both have seen this, I'm sure in our work, when you believe that about someone, it does change the dynamic, right? If you if I'm so sad, if you and I interact in and I'm so sad, I'm full, he's just he that's how he is. That's it's not gonna you know what, nothing I can do will change that. Right? You feel that in that interaction, you feel pigeon holed, you feel stuck, you feel underestimated. If I approach that conversation, even just in my mind, saying, I'm not sure why Dan's behaving the way he is, but I bet I bet he could change if the circumstances change, it's going to be a much more open collaborative interaction. I think that's a really important point about the concept of a growth mindset, it's both you can change what the other person can change to be both have the potential. And because if you don't have that view, then nothing can change. That's right, and actually need to return who I interviewed. She's a professor at London Business School, she I interviewed her for the book on the biased coworker. And she has some research that shows that the growth mindset really helps when you're challenging folks who are committing biased comments. Because if you point out someone who's made a bias comment, if you point it out, and you don't have any expectation that they'll change, then you're basically shaming them punishing them. But if you've if you have the mindset that they can actually grow and learn from the experience, you're much more likely to approach that conversation in a way of, well, how do we do this differently next time, I'm giving you room to learn and grow. And it's so important, particularly around if we want people to change their bias behavior, giving them the room to learn from their mistakes. You mentioned three kinds of knee jerk reactions that make things worse, not better in these situations. One of which is shaming people. The other which are retaliating. Which, of course, we often reflexively think well, maybe that'll help. And then the theory of suppressing what you're feeling about each and why it makes it worse to me is the there's a difference between pointing out someone's mistakes, and then make versus making someone feel like their mistake is inherent to who they are. So if you if you tell a know it all, like you know, you act, your blustery, you act so competent, like if you're you're pointing out like this is a human flaw with you, as opposed to you're exhibiting behavior that's having this impact on me. All right. Very big difference between when you act confidently and lay out all the facts without room for disagreement, it shuts down the conversation. Right. As opposed to your No at all. Who makes us all feel horrible? Right? Yeah. Such a such a difference. So and people we know, we know from research, Brene Brown has reached this. This has been there's been a lot about this. It's like we know people don't aren't inspired to change motivated to change. When they feel shame. They're actually inspired to double down on the behavior or hide from from the behavior. Remind me what the second one was? retaliated? Yes. So this is, this is my instinct. When we talk about the space between stimulus and response, when my student this space is very short, my instinct is how do I get back? Right? And how do I dish out exactly like I'm going to show them how bad it feels to have like a snarky email show up in my inbox at eight 830 At night, right? I'm just going to show but when I take a deep breath, I realized, right, that you're just encouraging the same behavior over and over, right and it's an in your modeling. I mean, part of encouraging people to change is modeling a different way of inter After. And I think a lot of when we talk about what's in your control, your ability to show, this is how I hope we can interact, this is how I want us to interact in the way you respond is so much more motivating and encouraging for the other person to change. Then there's suppressing your feelings. Yeah. And the suppression the I mean, the research on suppression is fascinating to me. I mean, there's, there's one study that shows that emotional suppression isn't only bad for you physically, but it actually suppresses leaders who suppress the heart rates of the people in the room while they're suppressing are going up. Right. So they were actually it's contagious, the negative impact of suppressing our emotions. And the truth is, anyone can relate to the idea that not only suppression, we know, suppression, instinctively, we can understand why that's bad. But also, it's just going to come out another way, right, you're gonna lash out at some point, you're gonna, you know, let you're gonna boil over, it's gonna you're gonna take it out on your partner, or on someone at work, who you actually like, you know, you're laughing in a way that makes me think you relate to that. I was thinking about check it out on your pet. That might Yes, right? Like, I mean, and the truth is, we most often take it out on ourselves in terms of sleepless nights, eating poorly, you know, you know, just sort of the negative physical ramifications of, of stress. But yeah, we might take it out on our backs, we might take it out on every, you know, people around us. So the suppressing the, the the like, I will just endure this, this negative relationship or all endure this bad behavior from this person is just not a good, it's not a good approach. So the question is, how not to suppress your negative feelings, but not act on them in a destructive way? That's right. I mean, that is heartbreak. How do you do because it does feel like a choice of? Well, I just will ignore these are all we often hear people say I'll compartmentalize them, but sometimes compartmentalizing them actually is just stuffing them away? Or can I just act on them? And that's where you really need that, that mental space, and by yourself the time you need to do what we were referring to earlier of the problem solving. Right? So not the rumination where you get built up and, you know, encourage the negative emotion, but actually take some time to think through okay, what is the scene about me? What is the scene about the way I interact? How if I was going to be my best self in the situation, what would I choose to do? Well, on that note, what would you recommend to people for maintaining their own well being, when they go to work every day was someone who just drives him crazy. Yeah. Number one, make connections with people you like, there's got to be people, if you are, you know, I have I work in a place where I love most of the people I work with. And yet, when I have a difficult interaction, that's the thing I think about I'm not thinking about the really kind, you know, Slack message I got from someone about, you know, a meeting that went well, I'm not thinking about the smiles people gave me in the hallway or on the Zoom calls, right? Like I'm focusing on like, what, like, why did that person, you know, challenge my idea in front of everyone, right? Yeah, I get really focused on the negative. So really, you want to lean into the positive? What, what positive connections do you have, and really try to remind yourself 90% of my interactions at work are great, right? Like that, or even sometimes with with some of these archetypes, 90% of your interactions with that person are great. And it's just 10% of the time, where it's really challenging. So trying to focus, not sugarcoat, but focus on what's actually going working well for you. You know, I also it and I think you also have to be very, very careful around you know, if, especially if you're dealing with someone like a political operator or tormentor, that you're documenting some of the behavior because if it's not going to change, you don't want to let it damage your your career. And I think that's also a positive steps you can take is, okay, I've tried to improve this dynamic. I've tried to get to make things better with this person, and it hasn't worked. So how do I protect myself in my career? And then also, I would say, you know, one of my favorite tactics is, at the end of the day, that person has to wake up as themselves, which seems pretty miserable, and I get to wake up as me and it's just, it sounds really rude. In mean, but it's a way of just saying like, No, I'm excited I get to, I'm making good choices about how I want to interact and how I want to behave. And I feel I've feel some sympathy for that person that they have to wake up. You know, they're miserable sounds. I know, I know, it sounds awful. But it just for me, it gives me the emotional distance I need from that difficult person. Do you have any tactic, Stan that you use to sort of protect yourself from some of these folks? You know, I'm an industrial strength meditator, I find it helps me calm down and be focused, despite what's going on. I've had some, I had one guy who was a terrible boss, one of your times. And that really helped me because I still had to be productive. Or I could stay calm and focus. But I want to say, Amy, it's such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you for coming on the podcast, the name of the book, everyone. And I really recommended getting along how to work with anyone, even difficult people. And Amy Gallo will show you exactly how. Thank you so much, Dan, this has been a pleasure. Yeah, it'd be a great pleasure. I hope we can continue to do stuff. Yeah, I would love that. And thank you so much for the kind words about the book and the blurb and every all of your support. I really appreciate it. Thank you How did things go at the RMV? By the way, it's awful. Thank you. They could use a lot of advice from you. I do feel like I feel like I could probably do like a live taping from an r&b about all the archetypes. I'm sure you saw all eight of them today in your Yeah, I mean, their passive aggressive their tormentor. It's all there. It's the pessimist like Yeah. Anyway, it was excruciating. Thank you. That's it for this episode of first person plural. Special thanks to our guests, Amy Gallo. Once again, her book is called Getting along how to work with anyone even difficult people. You can get it wherever books are sold. We also have the link in our show notes on our website, first person plural.com. While you're there, you can check out our guest BIOS transcripts and resources mentioned in today's episode, and you can also follow us on Instagram at Keystep media. If you enjoyed our discussion with Amy Gallo, check out some of our past interviews. A recent interview with Claire Kane Miller about the mental health of students is great for this back to school season. Daniel Goleman hosted today's episode Bryant Johnson is our artists and residents Zarina Kardon does marketing. Our music is by Gus beats. And I'm Carrie see this podcast is sponsored by Keystep media, your source for personal and professional development materials focused on mindfulness leadership and emotional intelligence. Take care of yourself and we'll talk soon