NYT Reporter, Claire Cain Miller, on the Pandemic’s Effect on Children

Today we're looking at emotional balance for young people. Liz Solomon spoke with New York Times reporter Claire Kane Miller about an eye opening survey of school counselors across the country. 

The survey described many students as developmentally frozen at their pre pandemic stage. We spoke with Gwen and Kim who work in elementary schools for first hand reports on the emotional state of children.

Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com

Transcript

Kerry Seed: 1:06

How's your summer going? This was a pretty tough school year for everyone. So we're doing our best to enjoy a more typical summer we'll be doing a lot of bike riding. Our oldest was just a musical. She was a teacup and Beauty and the Beast, and her little sister had an ice cream cake at her birthday party. Both of them I would say had incredible teachers this year who went above and beyond to make up for pandemic learning loss. So I feel so grateful for their teachers, especially as I read about this deepening Global Learning crisis and worsening inequalities in education. Have you seen this new report from the World Bank? It estimates that 70% of 10 year old children in developing countries are now unable to read and understand the basic text. The pandemic also stressed social and emotional skills like those you need to make and keep friends, participate in group projects and cope with frustration and other emotions. So today, we're looking at emotional balance for young people. Liz Solomon spoke with New York Times reporter Claire Kane Miller about an eye opening survey of school counselors across the country. First up, though, we wanted to hear from people working in schools, we thought we're going to talk to a whole bunch of them. But it turns out, they're on much needed vacation. So we're able to get to first you've got Liz speaking with her partner, Gwen, who's an educational consultant in Massachusetts.

Gwen Bass: 2:31

I work with organizations and schools and parents around issues related to supporting students for inclusion and special education and trauma informed teaching. So just a few questions, what changes in behavior Did you see this past school year, I just want to make make sure that I mentioned the caveat that like I work in the school, my most of the work that I do is on the organizational or systems level. And I had the pleasure of going into this school for just a day and a half a week. So I'm not someone who's been in the trenches for the last two, three years, and sort of sitting with what's been happening. So my perspective, I feel like is informed by the fact that like, I'm not burned out, it's important to acknowledge that. So some of the things that I it's hard for me to talk about changes. But some of the things that I've noticed are thematically shifting for kids are related to, we're seeing a lot more school refusal, a lot more kids having anxiety about going to school, in ways that I don't think we've ever really seen before. And to me, that makes a whole lot of sense. I also think we're at sort of this moment of mismatch between what educators and even caregivers are sort of expecting of their kids developmentally, and what is actually happening, given the vast range of experiences that kids had during the pandemic. So we're seeing second graders who show up looking like kindergarteners, and second grade teachers who are feeling really frustrated, because they're used to utilizing their second grade teaching skill set, and then feel really confused and frustrated that their kids aren't meeting those expectations. And I think that tends to lead to a lot of issues between home and school. Because there's this, again, it's like this mismatch of both parents who are really understandably anxious about protecting their children, and are all sort of recovering from or living with some ongoing presentation of that traumatic experience, while also wanting their kids to be successful in ways that we've typically measured success. So we know what kids should be doing at the age of 12. But a lot of kids are not doing the things that we would have expected them to be doing. And so trying to reconcile those differences of like, I really want to protect you, I want to make sure that you're safe. And you know, and I think some parents actually probably understand their kids a little better now than they did two years ago, because they've spent more time with them. But I think a lot of anxieties are sort of affecting the way we're asking kids to show up in school, and then simultaneously, we're expecting them to perform in standards that are relatively unreasonable, I think, how was your interaction with parents this year, I would say parents across the board were much more involved. I feel like it's important to mention, too, that I work with students with a range of like socio economic backgrounds and cultural backgrounds. And so all of that certainly plays into how parents engage in school, how comfortable they feel, what sort of the issues are that they're dealing with, related to their kids, but I would say that across the board, I've seen much more engagement involvement, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's productive. And I you know, I can't say that I had like, terrible experiences, but I definitely feel like that underlying trauma and anxiety of like, I'm not sure if my kids gonna be safe at school or I'm not sure my kids are not feeling comfortable, or my kids not doing well. And so I'm starting to panic, I think is is sort of fueled by that undercurrent of lingering trauma.

Liz Solomon: 5:50

And how have you seen either the school you worked in or schools that you consult with? How have you seen them addressing these challenges

Gwen Bass: 5:57

that you're seeing a lot of kids who are moving from sort of like, and I kind of I use this analogy may work a lot, like a lot of people will talk about kids going from zero to 60, when a lot of kids are really good at masking what it looks like to go from zero to 50. And so they're already at 50. And, you know, it seems like, you know, like, from that educator perspective, like kids are sort of like losing it quickly, and becoming really dysregulated. And I think teachers are really struggling to deal with it. I've seen some teachers do really great work around just what are the students in my classroom need to be able to feel valued, and, you know, like, included, and respected and capable, and really trying to build from that place of like, wow, we need to do some level setting and like really, building of folks self esteem and re introducing what it's like to be around other people and like, you're not just in your house. So like, there are a lot more social demands on kids, or behavioral demands. But I also think there's this like, interesting thing happening, you know, and it's a shift that I've sort of been encouraging for a long time of really understanding what it looks like to behave like what we expect school behavior to look like, which is really sort of, you know, not to be like overly political, but I feel like it's like a white supremacist oriented value system. And we're seeing a lot of kids who are typically sort of like shuttled out of being able to be successful in that environment are often and you know, neurodiverse kids, kids of color. Kids from different cultural backgrounds, or socio economic backgrounds are the ones who struggle the most in school. And so I think now we're seeing this, this time, when kids have spent more, they spent two years more or less immersed in their home culture, and then they're trying to reintegrate into school. And that just looks really different for a lot of kids. And I think a lot of teachers are having to sort of adjust their expectations, or having to create more inclusive environments so that kids want to engage, feel comfortable, feel safe. And in some ways, as difficult as that has been, and as much as I've seen teachers struggle. And again, I haven't been in that struggle for three years. So like, I can really appreciate it from that perspective. I think it's been in some ways a positive trend.

Elizabeth Solomon: 7:55

What do you expect for the coming year?

Gwen Bass: 7:57

I think we're gonna just continue to be in this readjustment phase of, you know, like, how involved do parents are parents gonna stay involved? I have a lot of questions about how this is going to progress as time goes on. But I really feel like some of the things that we have seen and you know, I think a lot about standardized testing. And a lot of the norms for standardized tests right come from, like, what are the majority of kids doing three years ago? That's how we know what is a developmentally appropriate sort of expectation. That's how we define what is average. And I think that will continue to shift as we, you know, see what kind of happens with this population of kids over the next few years. So I think we'll see that I think, the other piece that I acknowledged in some of the work that I did in schools is because of burnout. And because of kind of managing these two expectations of holding a higher level of social emotional need for from kids, like teachers are having to do a lot more in that way. And they're having to do a lot of academic catching up of kids, I think that tension will continue. And I think at some point, we're gonna have to figure out how to meet in the middle, in terms of really supporting kids as whole people, and really understanding achievement a little bit differently. And, you know, what are our goals for our kids? And I often in my work with teachers will say, like, what do you want them to be able to do at the end of the day, you know, like, what's the most important thing for these kids to be able to accomplish? Is it like, you know, I'm 100% sure that what really matters to me is they need to, like, understand the Odyssey and be able to talk about it. And that's like, totally fine, if that's your value system. But I think being really clear about what those things are. And for me, a lot of that is really much more rooted in the social emotional skills that we know sort of ultimately contribute to lifelong well being. And what are some of those skills in this moment, obviously, this issue around self regulation in the classroom is huge, and being able to be collaborative. And I think kids haven't really had the opportunity to interact with a lot of other folks until this year, we're sort of back and like I said, just kind of readjusting to what it's like to be together. But I also feel like there's a really important piece around self advocacy that relates to having self awareness, having, you know, this idea that like, I am responsible for my own being I can have wants a need that interests, other people do too. And I can like make sense of the systems that I'm a part of, to be able to really figure out how to like meet my personal goals and needs, so that I can achieve in the ways that are important to me

Liz Solomon: 10:17

anything to say about like examples or stories of schools who have really been able to support their teachers, their counselors and their kids. Well, this year, kind of at the administrative or leadership level. Yeah,

Gwen Bass: 10:28

you know, I think we've talked for a long time about relationship building. And one of the critiques around culturally responsive teaching is a lot of folks will say, all you have to do is build relationships. And that's going to change the culture and I don't actually totally abide by that. But I do feel like because kids have had such strange social isolation or many of the places where I've seen Like a principle take 10 minutes to go to baskets with a seventh grader who's having a really hard time like that stuff makes a huge difference right now are the ways that individual kids are kind of acknowledged for like, hey, you know, you were having a really hard time coming into school and you're doing it. And that's really great. And sort of acknowledging those pieces. I think that those little steps go a really, really long way in terms of helping people feel like oh, right School is a place where like, I belong, and somebody cares about me. And they're invested in my well being, and they believe that I can succeed. And I think that's one of the things that we most sort of like need to convey to them. And so those kinds of like micro moments feel really highly impactful right now.

Kerry Seed: 11:37

There was one educational consultant in Massachusetts speaking about her experience in schools this year. And next I spoke with my sister in law Kim. She teaches in an Oregon Elementary School supporting first and second graders who speak languages other than English. Her students come from all over the world and speak more than 19 languages. She says the pandemic has shed light on a years long decline in students mental stability.

Kim Seed: 12:03

I will say I'm glad to see that the pandemic has maybe shined a light on a lot of issues that children have been having, I do have a concern that the pandemic is going to be maybe an excuse for what I've been seeing. For several years prior to the pandemic, students. Mental behaviors have been declining long before the pandemic,

Kerry Seed: 12:29

Oregon closed schools for longer than most states. This year, you're back for a full school year. What did you see?

Kim Seed: 12:37

Again, I met a first grade. So our students that came in the beginning of this past school year had not had experience at all, as a student in a school building. And we did see again, and I would say this was pandemic related for certain, they just had not had an experience of being a student of being in school, they didn't know how to be a student, what was expected, how to behave, how to stand in line, how to listen to directions. And I did notice an even more stark inability to interact, solve conflicts work with peers, which surprises me because frankly, most of our students were not isolated. They live in apartments, they live in communities where they were still playing outside, interacting with families living in multiple family homes. So they didn't have the isolation that I think a lot of families did have, I can remember we would deliver supplies to the kids, the bags that they would need for their academic, whatever they needed that month, or week, and, and we would pull up to a complex and there would be 25 3040 kids outside playing. So I know that they didn't lack the social interaction. It was more just being a student and being in a school environment. That was difficult at first.

Kerry Seed: 14:11

And as an adult, what's that like for you during the day?

Kim Seed: 14:14

It's tiring, it's tiring. And sometimes it's hard to stay positive. But we do and we just redirect and practice.

Kerry Seed: 14:23

And Did it improve over time? It did.

Kim Seed: 14:26

I would say that was one of the exciting things about coming back this year is starting from a rough spot. And then seeing that growth was tremendous. And it was really, I just felt good to see them progress and mature and become students and know what those expectations and norms were.

Kerry Seed: 14:50

What about things like anxiety and depression or strong emotions?

Kim Seed: 14:56

Again, I can't speak that. I saw it become more of a problem this year post pandemic, but we have had instances where children just will talk negatively about themselves and about others. They'll say I've heard the normal I can't do that. I'm no good at this. But I don't like myself. I don't have any friends. And I'm glad I don't have any friends. Things like that that are sad and troubling from first graders. Yeah,

Kerry Seed: 15:30

that's a disturbing statement.

Kim Seed: 15:32

I'm trained to be an educator and teach academics to a student. I was not trained as a counselor, or one to deal with a student in crisis. And that's a position that we are put in as teachers these days and I, for one, don't feel qualified to do it. So we'll often reach out to experts in the room in the building. So many times, we have to peel back those layers, those needs that kids have for them to even be able to start accessing the academics. So that's a lot on our plates. They've got to address these more fundamental issues before they can even show up to learn. Yes, how was your interaction with parents different this year, if at all, I would say, again, I'm not a classroom teacher. And so I generally don't have the direct contact with parents. I personally have made an effort to do that more this year. And so I'm, I would say that was better. And I will say that when we were teaching remotely, one of the benefits was being basically at our students homes, and then is when I had a lot more interaction with our families. And I could give feedback right then in there, oftentimes, and I loved it, I would have a parent, sitting alongside their child, learning English along with them, along with us. And once I had a child who had been struggling and had had an amazing, I can't say day, but group time with me, and mom was in the room, and I was able to say, Hey, can have mom come on over and just give her that positive feedback right away, and have the child right there to hear it. That was an amazing part of the distance learning missed out a little bit this last year, as we were more with the kids, but not having as much of a connection with the whole family. You said a lot of the issues at your school are racial in nature, I think they are I think there's a repression and that many of our families who are not your white middle class, just don't have the opportunity to know that they have the opportunities that they could access. And, again, I think deeply that every family wants what's best for their child and wants to do what's best for their child, but they don't have those resources, or they're simply don't know they're out there. And then also, they're just struggling to survive. They're struggling to know where they're going to live. Next week, they're struggling because they haven't seen their father in five years. And there's there they miss family that that aren't here. And I think that's a lot of the reasons they're just surviving and working hard. And, and trying to do the best that they can but, but they're stuck and it's hard to dig themselves back out of that hole. Let's just say a student doesn't do their homework or isn't being supported with their reading. And we can talk so negatively about, oh, this family doesn't care about school, this family's not supporting their student. Nope, it's probably that mom and or dad, or whoever the adult taking care of the child works nights and needs to sleep and works two or three jobs to support their family. And to just take some of that negative thinking away and support a family where they are because again, I have to believe everyone's innately good and wants to do what's best for their child. But perhaps there are some walls that need to be taken down for them to be able to do that, if that makes any sense. I

Kerry Seed: 19:37

want to thank Gwen and Kim for sharing what it was like working in schools this year. For more on the state of students emotional balance. Liz Solomon interviewed Claire Kane Miller, a reporter for The upshot of The New York Times, she writes about gender work and family. During the pandemic, her beat often extended to children's well being as a result of all the disruptions to families with school closures. With the times you recently launched a survey where you talk to I think over 350 school counselors nationwide. And some of the things you heard back were, you know, perhaps unsurprising given what we're seeing in the rest of the news, and I'm sure unsurprising to some of our parents out there. But students right now were described as being frozen socially and emotionally at the age when the pandemic started. And nearly all of the counselors in this survey that you launched, said that their students were showing more signs of anxiety and depression than before the pandemic. I would love to just hear what inspired you and the times to develop this survey and what else did you learn? Absolutely. So I have two children. They're currently finishing kindergarten and fourth grade and in

Claire Cain Miller: 20:50

My life as a parent, I had heard teachers say this a lot, I talked to a second grade teacher at our school who said, you know, I've taught second grade for a long time. And I'm realizing that this year I'm having to teach kindergarten skills, because our students haven't had experience sitting at desks or lining up to go to another classroom or raising their hand when they want to share something. I also heard from a fourth grade teacher at our school that this was the hardest year of her career, a 20 year plus career. And it wasn't because of academic lags, which is what she had expected, it was because of social emotional lags. And even into the spring, after a year of being back in full time school, or her kids were still really struggling with some of these social emotional skills. I heard from our school counselor that she just simply didn't have enough time to do one on one sessions are small group sessions with all the children who needed it, because there was so much greater need this year. And so we've done this method in the past, we did it for being an epidemiologist at the beginning of the pandemic, where we reach out to hundreds or 1000s through a professional organization. Lots of journalism is about interviewing people, one on one and hearing anecdotes. And those anecdotes can be very powerful, like the ones that I just shared from the teachers and counselor at our school. But we also find there's something really powerful about talking to hundreds or 1000s of people working in the same profession nationwide, because you start to see these patterns, it's it's really powerful for one person to say they're seeing this, but when you hear that people across the country, in schools, in rich and poor communities, public and private, urban and rural, are all seeing these patterns, it tells you a different story. So that's why I wanted to do that. And that's where the idea came from.

Elizabeth Solomon: 22:41

That's great. I'm curious if there's any more to share about some of what teachers and administrators and school counselors were sharing in the survey in terms of, you know, what are some of the specific gaps that they're seeing or specific behaviors that they're seeing.

Claire Cain Miller: 22:55

So the most striking one to me was signs of anxiety or depression, we asked about a bunch of behaviors and coping skills and emotional health issues. And we asked if they were seeing the more than they had in the year before the pandemic, about the same less, or if they had never seen those at their school. The highest increase was signs of anxiety or depression, a full 94% of school counselors said they were seeing more of that. And we did qualitative follow up questions asking about it. Anxiety was really the big one. Kids who were sort of unable to focus in class because of their anxiety. In some cases, it was very focused on things like a family member getting sick themselves getting COVID, you know, not being able to keep up in school with what was being taught this year after a year of being remote. But often it was just more amorphous symptoms. You know, just a agitation worries, trouble coping. One thing that we heard from many, many counselors along these lines was that they've had more referrals outside of the system than ever before. School counselors, of course, are not therapists, they can provide short term help, they often provide a full class or small group help, but but they don't have the capacity or the training to see kids, one on one for long periods of time. And so when kids need that they refer them outside the system to a doctor or a therapist. Usually that happens a few times a year, they said now they said it's happening all the time. A lot of them mentioned suicidal ideation has increased, really disturbingly, they mentioned this a lot at the elementary school level, and third and fourth and fifth grade that they'd seen self harm. And kids talking about suicide and of course, when they see that they refer them out. And then a problem is that the mental health system outside the schools is also overcapacity right? Now. So many times when they referred them out, they couldn't see somebody there were waitlists, the people who are available to take insurance. Sometimes kids end up in the ER, which is not actually equipped to treat someone with with a long term issue, but is the only place to go when there's nothing else available.

Elizabeth Solomon: 25:15

Yeah, yeah.

Liz Solomon: 25:17

I've been thinking about that a lot lately. I also have for kids between my partner and I ages nine through 13 and have been following pretty closely just the incredible rise in child suicide.

Claire Cain Miller: 25:50

Rules who have been equipped to handle this? Well, so one of the biggest issues is the ratio. The American School Counselor Association recommends that there is one counselor for 250 kids, which is already crazy, an extraordinarily large amount of, but most schools in this country don't even meet that they're more like one counselor for every 400 kids. So the schools that have been able to bring in extra help, have said that that has been huge, you know, just to get that ratio down so that counselors can work with fewer children, we're still talking a couple 100 children. So you know, it's definitely not enough. Another thing that we heard was really helpful is some schools have been able to bring in therapists. So these are therapists from the community, like from community health centers, who come work at the school one day a week. In some cases, they're doing this pro bono, in most cases, they're accepting insurance, and they work with the parents, just like if the parent hadn't had seen the therapist in a medical setting, but they're coming to the school. That's been really helpful, but is not so common. It requires partnerships between schools and community health care centers, and people who are willing to do this. One thing I heard a lot of, you know, counselors have sort of switched their jobs in a sense, where, before they were working on social emotional skills, which your listeners are familiar with, but things like executive function, how to plan for completing the projects that you need to do, how to stay organized, and motivated and set goals in school, that had to do with social skills, how to solve conflicts with friends, how to make friends, and then had to do with coping skills, what to do when you're really stressed. And when you're really frustrated, things like that. Those sorts of proactive lessons, a lot of counselors talk to me about how their job is proactive teaching, that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to teach kids those skills, not in the moment of a crisis. But so that then when they're stressed about a big test, or when they get in a fight on the playground, they can draw upon those skills that they already learned in order to cope with those issues. They said that their jobs this year have become almost entirely reactive. Meaning that they're not even having the time or space to teach proactive skills. So many kids are in crisis. They are, you know, melting down in class, they are unable to complete their schoolwork, they are getting into physical fights on the playground. So instead, they're teaching these skills after the fact they're working on solving these crises. But the ones who have been able to find time and space to sort of do some more proactive things, had some really interesting ideas. One thing I've heard a lot is an idea of creating wellness rooms. They call them calm down rooms or wellness rooms or reset areas. And they were basically places they have couches, beanbags, fidget toys, a lot of people talked about these calming bottles or stress bottles, where you fill up a tight bottle with liquid or little floaty things or glitter. And you can turn it upside down and just sort of watch it and it's a mindfulness activity. And the idea was that kids can come to these areas when they feel their anxiety, or their stress building, or they're having a conflict, and they can use those areas to calm down. In some cases, depending on the resources of that school community, this was more like a snack room, if you were dealing with food insecurity at home, you could come and make sure that you got you know, fed because we're talking about really, you know, basic needs being met and not being met in some communities as a result of the pandemic. So really, it depends on on the area, they are like, what level of needs that they're working on. Another thing I heard was counselors really expanding the kinds of things they teach. So taking this time to to really focus on anxiety since that was the main thing that they were seeing and and sort of putting these other lessons on maybe how to plan for applying to college aside for the moment and, and working on anxiety, you know, either in in whole class activities and small groups, things like that. So these are these are some of the like really concrete things that people have done. That sounded really intrigued.

Elizabeth Solomon: 30:06

You know, as you're talking specifically, as you mentioned, things like wellness rooms, my mind immediately flashed to like Silicon Valley Tech, right? And what we think of is kind of some of the most lavish cultures right, where there's napping, pods and all of these little timeout spaces. And I'm, it leads me to a question, you know, especially for you as someone who writes about not just has been writing about kids and Child Mental Health in the school system, but writes about work. What are some of the parallels that you're seeing across the board between Child Mental Health and adult mental health, between the resources we need in schools and resources that we need in the workplace?

Claire Cain Miller: 30:44

I think one sort of outcome of the pandemic that is ultimate minutely a good thing is that there has just been so much more openness about mental health, this affected every single person on earth in some way. And it has opened up, I think the ability for people to share more about mental health with less stigma. One thing I heard from school counselors is that kids are really good at this that because you know, things are new to kids, kids carry less stigma, they haven't been in society as long, they're really good at it. But I think adults are getting better at it too. And, you know, I think that some workplaces and specifically right now, I'm talking about white collar workplaces that are able to give these kinds of benefits, some have added mental health days, some have added on free therapy services as part of their benefits package. And I think there's just a lot less stigma and a lot more openness to using those as a result of the pandemic. I want to be very clear here that a lot of workplaces have not been able to address mental health have probably made mental health a lot worse during the pandemic, and I'm talking about essential workers, hourly workers who have still had to go to grocery stores, for example, every day, you know, we've heard a lot about how people in these kinds of jobs have really struggled in a pandemic, because they've been on the front lines, we've heard a lot about health care workers just being completely burnt out. There's a doctor and nurse shortage in this country right now. So you know, I don't think that all workplaces have been able to address this, but I think some have, and I think, overall, what we've realized both with kids and adults, and this is something that people in your field have known for a very long time, it will not strike you as news. But for some people it is news, or a new way of thinking about it is that you can't really be productive, or learn or work or do anything else without these needs being met. So a lot of schools have been resistant to investing in social emotional learning. There are some states like Florida right now that are actually trying to restrict social emotional learning for political reasons that that's not even what I'm talking about. I'm talking about just not prioritizing it not thinking it's a great place to spend money or time in the classroom, when you could be doing math facts, instead of you know, an exercise on how to handle stress. But what I heard from counselors and from teachers this year is just this deep realization that without those coping skills without the ability to be centered and mindful in class and not anxious and not, you know, worrying about what's going on at home or worrying about whether you're getting COVID or worrying about whether you're behind in school, you can't really learn you can't really focus on math facts if you are in the middle of a meltdown. So these are sort of like basic skills. And I think that workplaces have hopefully, and again, probably more white collar, you know, you mentioned Silicon Valley, these kinds of places that can afford to give a lot of benefits have realized this is that they're not going to get productivity out of their workers collaboration out of the workers and less their workers like basic mental health needs are being met.

Elizabeth Solomon: 33:54

Yeah, I think you're pointing to what I'm seeing is like this sort of great paradigm transition that we're in, right, which is from this hyper focus on achievement, and these very kind of narrow parameters, academic achievement, grades, math, science, right? Go to Harvard, go to Yale, the way that we kind of prepare kids to engage with these larger systems. And this realization, you know, I think for a long time, there's been this divide of like, we're either achieving academically, or we're kind of like in the feelings zone, right. And seeing those as two separate realities, when what the research is showing is actually those are just two sides of the same coin. And that in order to be focused and motivated, we need to sort of attend to our emotional selves, both within schools as in the within the workplace. You know, I do hear that the conversation around mental health has become more public facing organizations, schools, people are talking about mental health and helping kids and adults have access to individual services. One of the questions that I often asked myself is what does it look like to be able to have some of these conversations to be able to process grief in collective settings, right, as part of group conversation to be in a group process together. And I'm wondering if you heard from any of these school counselors, examples of how either the school day had been transformed somewhat, or maybe specific teachers within their classrooms, we're giving kids the space to actually talk about their fears, not just around COVID But you know, all of the overlapping tragedies that we've seen over the past two years. I did

Claire Cain Miller: 35:35

the one way that I heard that the most I heard a lot of people mentioned there was a lot of grief and that kids needed space to process it. The specific way that I heard a lot, which I thought was interesting was through art. So several of the counselors mentioned that they had done on different kinds of sort of art therapy projects, which were a way for kids to process what they went through, there was a lot of mentioned that the pandemic obviously affected kids differently. Some kids lost parents, some kids experienced homelessness or food insecurity. As a result, these are, you know, very, very big sources of stress and grief that needs to be processed. For other kids, it was, might seem smaller, but in their lives, it's still very large, which is, you know, at a key year for social development, say junior high level, they didn't see their friends for a year, or they lost friends. It could be also that the pandemic was a nice break for some of them a few places, especially at the kind of schools that you're mentioning these schools that have been really focused on achievement and getting into the best college, the kids have been really over scheduled, they had a great deal of stress, because of being over scheduled with extracurriculars with AP classes, and all of it. And counselors at these schools mentioned this year long break, where none of those things were possible was actually really healthy for these kids. And now what they're talking about upon return is how do we keep that balance between school and life, and you know that you have some more of that space and not go back to the stress that you felt before for other kids. Maybe they had a lot of sensory issues, or social anxiety and being in school was really hard for them. And so the pandemic actually felt like a bit of a respite. I'll take a sort of side note there and say that a lot of the psychiatrists and psychologists I talked to, said that for these kids, while it may have been arrested, it's still important for them to be back in school, because avoiding the thing that causes you anxiety, like a group of students is not usually the best way to treat anxiety. So they still recommended that these kids, you know, benefits from being back in school. But it just goes to show that there's different experiences of the pandemic. So going back to the to the way that they were processing that I heard a lot about was art, was drawing pictures, it was writing comic strips, or making graphic novels. In some cases, you know, it was free form, so they could write a poem or a song if they wanted to, and then sharing them with the class. And a few of the counselors said that, that this form of art really helps kids, you know, kids often share a lot of feelings through what they draw, or what they make. And, and it just gave them space to focus on that a lot of the counselors and teachers to also mentioned that, you know, the idea of going straight into the academic year without taking this time to process those feelings, talk about them make art about them, just didn't really work. But it was sort of that kind of break for processing was really needed before that they could move on and focus on the strictly academic learning.

Elizabeth Solomon: 38:39

Another thing I've been thinking about, you know, in the world of emotional intelligence, we talk a lot about emotional contagion, which is to say that, you know, the, the person with power in the room, ie the leader, the teacher, whoever that is, their emotions are contagious, people look to them to set the emotional tone. And so thinking about in schools, I'm wondering if there was any talk about how teachers were being supported the importance of supporting teachers, not just for their own well being, but for the well being of those that they lead and teach as well.

Claire Cain Miller: 39:11

This was mentioned a lot, and I'm glad you brought it up. A lot of the counselors said this was sort of, you know, the number one thing for exactly the reason you say, and they were really worried that teachers weren't being supported. Enough, it's obviously been a hard two years for teachers in very many ways. From, you know, essentially being workers that had to go in person, and the fears about COVID, to transitioning your entire teaching style to online, and then the political fighting between teachers, unions and parents about when schools would reopen. And masking has just been really brutal. Teachers, like all of us have lost people in the pandemic have worried about, you know, their own health of their family and friends. And a lot of counselors said that they were fearful that there hasn't been enough support, this could look like different things. What a few of them said is that, you know, for teachers to be able to have mental health days and have access to therapy themselves, and then have access to more support in the classroom with teachers aides, and smaller classes would all be really helpful. Most of those things aren't really available, especially in public schools, there just isn't funding to give more support in the classroom or to give teachers more days off, or to give teachers therapy. So it's not clear that this has been done as much as it could, but it's a really good point that it needs to and then the other sort of piece of that that counselors mentioned is parents and that parents need this support to there's been a lot of work in the social emotional field, as you know, around the role of buffering where even if a kid has a traumatic event, which you know, all kids in America had some form of trauma during the pandemic, that if there are adults in their lives, who are equipped to show them unconditional love and support and talk to them about their experience during the traumatic event and help them cope with their feelings, that that buffering role is really, really powerful, and that it can really protect kids from the long term effects of trauma in their childhood. But parents who are also experiencing the trauma of the pandemic, and are also undergoing a great deal of stress and loss and grief, perhaps homelessness and food insecurity, perhaps just working from home with their kids there and you know, not being able to manage doing three different jobs at once. It's just really hard for parents to maintain equanimity and to really be a buffering force when they are experiencing their own stress and not being able to cope with it. Some counselors in pretty hard hit communities, or under resourced communities, expressed that they weren't even sure that parents, you know, realized how much stress was being passed on to their kids, because they were just in it, you know, they were just trying, they're just trying to get through the day, there's only so much that they can do. And so support for parents, they mentioned things like lessons, you know, maybe even online lessons that the school could provide links to videos on these things, workshops. But also addressing basic needs, like, you know, financing for food keeping, keeping schools open with these free meals they've been providing, even on days when school is closed, helping parents find housing, and then also making them aware of you know, how their stress can be passed on to the kids, but really providing concrete resources so that they like teachers can manage their own stress and then be able to help.

Elizabeth Solomon: 42:42

Yeah, I was going to share with you that we got a letter from my daughter's the head of my daughter's soccer league last week. And I'm just going to read you the first couple lines of that, because it's it's resonating with what you're saying. Unfortunately, this weekend, we've seen an uptick in poor sideline behavior, both from coaches and from spectators. So they're talking about adults. Can I remind you, everyone that these are mid level youth soccer games, your child's participation should be a fun, stress free experience. There are no pro contracts being handed out here. At no point should we have people questioning abusing referees or coaches spectators physically or verbally assaulting each other during and after the game? I'm reading this to you because it just illuminates what you're talking about, right? The ripple effect of stress. And I'm wondering, you know, you've written a lot about working mothers and gender differences in the workforce. And I'm just curious what other kinds of relationships you see between some of the research that you've done in that area and the ripple effect of parents stress to kids?

Claire Cain Miller: 43:49

Sure, but first I will I will say that like a lot of these issues. You know, kids having anxiety that had been increasing before the pandemic, right? Teachers being burnt out that had been happening before the pandemic parents getting, you know, too angry on the sidelines of like, very young kids sports was already happening. But the pandemic seems to have exacerbated a lot of these issues. And it's no surprise, right, we're all under a lot of stress. And some of the child psychologists that I spoke to, for this article said, a lot of the behaviors that were being seen things like physical fights on the playground, or in some cases, talking back or even slapping teachers to sort of like aggression and acting out is actually a symptom of childhood anxiety or even depression. It's the way that children show that they're having hard emotions. And I think that that can be said of adults, too, right. Some of these adults who are on the sidelines, have not been able to cope with their stress. I'm thinking of an article that ran in the New York Times and Sunday business by a colleague, Sarah Lyle, and the headline, I loved it so much. It was called a nation on hold, wants to speak with a manager. And it was a it had this story about this man who was shopping in a grocery store for cheese and they didn't have the cheese he likes and he had a full on temper tantrum. And then the person who worked in the grocery store said I don't think it was about the cheese. But the sub headline of this was in our anger filled age when people need to shop or travel or cope with mild disappointment. They're quote devolving into children. And I think that it sort of speaks to exactly what you're talking about where you know, some of these behaviors were seen in children were also seen in adults and why it's so important to be able to cope. To get to your other question. You know, our country and this is something that I've written about a lot does not support working parents in the ways that other developed countries do and that was true beforehand. We have no guaranteed pay family leave, we have no guaranteed subsidized or free universal childcare. We have workplaces where it's really hard to get part time work. And if you do work part time, you're penalized and pay way more than just, you know, your pay being halved you're penalized and promotions, we have a work culture that really values people who work more than eight hour days or answering emails on weekends. And these problems already existed, it was already really hard to be a working parent in the United States, particularly a working mother because mothers carry the brunt of the caregiving. They, you know, there's been a ton of research around this worldwide that shows when a child has a crisis, the mother drops everything immediately and steps in. The research has been done on you know, childhood cancer and really big crises. But I think and I've written about this, it could be extended to the pandemic, when schools closed, you know, fathers did a lot in some houses, fathers did most of it. But for the most part, mothers dropped everything and stepped in by default. It's just, you know, what we are socialized to do. And so what the pandemic did is just overflowed all of this. So you're still expected to do this job that you already were sort of treading water to try to do without these adequate supports, from society to have kids and a job at the same time. And now those supports went away the entire system at the beginning, as you'll recall, even though it seems forever ago, went away, childcare centers closed, schools closed, you couldn't hire a babysitter, you couldn't have grandparents come in at the very beginning, because there was such a fear of how the virus spread, there were not vaccines, so the entire system went away. What I think is really worth talking about right now, when it comes to working parents is how the system has not been rebuilt. There's this expectation that we're back to normal schools are open. childcare centers are open, we have vaccinations. It's like workplaces just expected in many cases, and society just expected like we're back to normal. So do what you did before. First of all, what what happened before was not working. But also it's not really back to normal and anyone with young kids. Your kids are sort of preteen and teen but same I'm sure that you see this aftercare is not fully back to normal, there's still social distancing, some places haven't, you know, fully reopened. There are staffing shortages that are sort of like an effect of the pandemic, not a direct effect. But a secondary effect, where there's not swim lessons, there's not people staffing indoor play center. So they're not open that these things that kids used to do. There are still people who, you know, are not really comfortable seeing grandparents or having babysitters, because under five kids are not yet vaccinated. And over five kids who have the opportunity to be vaccinated are still you know, in classrooms with 30 kids and getting these exposures. It's just not fully back to normal. And I think this is a moment that is particularly stressful for working parents who are expected to work as if everything is back to normal. And it's really not. And then again, like I said, it wasn't working before. So why go back? Why is that even our ultimate goal?

Elizabeth Solomon: 49:07

You're making me think a little bit about there was a study from Harvard University, and I think 2014. And basically what it showed is that the message that we send, particularly that parents send to children about the value of empathy, is actually undermined or drowned out by the message we actually send, and that is that we value achievement above all else. And I think, you know, that's being captured in some of what you're saying, right now that we're a little bit in this place where we're like, okay, we really need to attend to people emotionally, we actually need to create school systems and workplaces where empathy is a core value. And, you know, we're, we're practicing showing up for one another, and leaving space for all the sort of complicated emotions of what it is to be human, particularly now. And we have entire structures like our entire economy, is built off of again, achievement. And so I'm curious if this is one of the ways that you also see the issue or if there's another way that you would frame that? No, I

Claire Cain Miller: 50:06

think that's absolutely true. It's one thing for HR to say something, it's one thing for management to say something and for it to exist on the books. It's another thing for that to be there in practice. I have done a lot of reporting on paternity leave as an example of this. So when companies put in paternity leaves, paid paternity leave for new fathers, often fathers don't take it. And that's because they feel that there's a stigma against it, or there's too much work to actually take it. So it's not enough to just make a policy. You have to really change the culture around that. And I think this is one of the things with mental health days. A lot of again, white collar companies with a lot of benefits have added mental health days or said that that some of the sick time can be used for mental health, meaning no questions asked if you're over Stress burnt out, if you just need a day to take care of yourself to rest, you can do that. But then people who I've interviewed for some of this reporting, say, okay, that's wonderful, but I don't have time, I might have too much on my plate at work, there's no way that I can take a day off. Or if I actually told my boss, I was taking a mental health day, they would roll their eyes, you know, they might think that I'm not dedicated next time, it comes up for promotion. And so that's Yes, an example of how you can pay lip service to this. But cultural change is harder, and it does happen from the top down. So in a workplace, it really does make a difference, if the very most senior managers say, I'm leaving this all hands meeting early, because I have to pick up my kid from school, or I'm taking this week off, because my kids out of school and we're going on a family vacation, it makes a really big difference. Because if you see your boss doing that, you feel more at liberty to do that. And for kids, that is, like you said about the family structure and what parents are modeling. So you know, one thing that that child psychologist say a lot is model, just taking a break. If the parents are about to lose their temper with the kid, that's fine, people lose their temper, you don't need to pretend that you don't, but you can model I'm gonna go take a break in my room right now I'm gonna give myself a timeout. And sometimes kids are sort of like, startled by that, like, you take timeout too. And it's like, yeah, timeouts are not just like getting in trouble. This is how I'm going to go reset, I'm going to take some deep breaths, and I'm going to come back. And we're going to finish this conversation when I'm equipped to do that. And that's just a small example of how parents can model that that happens with achievement, too, right? Some of the school counselors mentioned that during the pandemic standards were relaxed, because there was a lot of, you know, empathy for kids learning from home that that it was really hard to do, that they may have had other family circumstances that made it even harder to do. Kids aren't old enough to have the independent discipline to study on their own, you know, standards were relaxed. And some counselors said they think standards need to be increased a little bit now that kids are back that kids need to be reminded of the demands and the requirements of school and have those that sort of scaffolding in place. And those higher expectations. And there's some truth to that, right. But there's also truth to saying, you know, what, you seem so stressed right? Now, let's just not worry about this math test. Tonight. Let's not worry about this homework tonight. Let's prioritize this. And, you know, as adults, it's not either or, as adults in children's lives. I think it's just important to understand, you know, are they trying to find a loophole to get out of this? Or are they truly too stressed? And this is not important right now. And we can model making those choices? Because we have to make those choices as humans and as adults? Like, do I actually need to just go to bed tonight and finish this work project in the morning? Or do I have the capacity to keep doing this right now? You know, it's a useful skill for life. And that's something that I think teachers and parents can model and are trying to model for children right

Liz Solomon: 53:50

now. I love what you said about the timeout. That's a common technique I use with myself. I'm like, I'm about to flip my lid. So look at the clock right now. It's noon, and I will be back in the kitchen at 1215. And we can have an actual discussion. Yeah, yeah,

Claire Cain Miller: 54:04

yeah, exactly.

Liz Solomon: 54:06

I'm curious. You know, looking forward, what are you keeping an eye on as a reporter? And what do you expect in the school year ahead in the fall,

Claire Cain Miller: 54:15

it seems like school is going to be very much back to pre pandemic normal next year, we don't know what the pandemic will do. But we have now had schools open through delta and Omicron. masks were removed in many places for the first time during Omicron. So I wouldn't be surprised if schools put into place more closures or more restrictions. I'm not saying what's right from a public health point of view. That's not my expertise. But I would be surprised to see that based on what we saw this year. A lot of the counselors and teachers that I spoke with and administrators said what they what they don't really want to do is go back to entirely 2019 normal, they would like more of this social emotional teaching, this understanding of kids anxiety and stress and making space for that providing physical spaces for them to deal with that they would like more of that in the schools, they would like less emphasis on testing and more, you know, individualized understanding of what kids are going through and again, not letting them off the hook, not lowering standards. But just understanding that before you can learn academically you need to be in a good space in terms of your mental health. However, I did talk to a lot of teachers and counselors and administrators who are worried that these things wouldn't happen because schools just don't have a lot of room to make changes with public school budgeting and everything else. Some of the things COVID relief funds that schools have been able to use for extra resources like additional counselors, therapists, some of these things that we've been talking about today, those are going to go away, those were temporary increases in funding from the federal government as a result of COVID. And won't last. So I guess one thing I'll be keeping an eye on is how social emotional teaching expands or grows or decreases, shrinks. And also whether teachers are able to take some of these learnings from the past few years, about how children learn best about you know, spaces that they can go sit on a beanbag to do their work on, you know, it can be small changes like that in classrooms, like being able to sit on a beanbag, instead of in your desk chair makes a really big difference. For some kids, being able to bring a fidget to your desk makes a really big difference for some kids. So how these kinds of things can be integrated into the classroom will be one thing. And then and then a final thing is just how the needs and burnout of teachers is being addressed. And how that can happen either through funding for more staff, through mental health days through whatever it has to be, so that teachers can can be able to be there and show up for

Elizabeth Solomon: 57:04

the kids. One last question. And that is, you know, I think, obviously, we've been talking in the framework of the pandemic, right. But I'm also curious, do you think that the rise in gun violence, mass school shootings, all of the things that we've been seeing in the news lately, do you feel that this is influencing further influencing schools to take social emotional learning and mental health more seriously?

Claire Cain Miller: 57:29

I really hope so. Of course, these things that are happening, really affect kids and really increase anxiety. And one thing I heard from a lot of parents and teachers and comments on my story about the pandemic's effect on social emotional skills was, of course, kids are anxious because they're also worried about school shootings, which is extremely true, I was relieved to see in our survey, that only 3% which is already way too many, obviously. But it was the least the smallest effect, we saw 3% of counselor said that there were more instances of bringing guns to school. But of course, these things happen. And it's it's simply horrific. I am very much hopeful that schools find a way both to realize that when kids fall through the cracks, schools are sort of like a frontline to recognize some of these problems. And that's one reason we need counseling resources. But also yes, to help kids cope with their fear and anxiety around this, there's been a lot of concern, as I'm sure you've heard about lockdown drills. And whether they're causing more anxiety than help because they don't always even work when there is an incident. That's not my area of expertise. But I'm very much hoping that the incident in Texas and elsewhere can force a look at what we're doing in schools and how we're helping kids cope. But you know, overall, needless to say, what I wish is that that weren't even something that we needed to talk about when

Elizabeth Solomon: 58:58

it came to schools. And one more question about that. And this is kind of a personal Parent to Parent question more than anything else, you know, my daughter is she's biracial, black. And so, you know, for her to hear about the incredible amounts of violence linked to deep systemic racism in this country. And to hear about school shootings, there's definitely been a couple nights, you know, where she's been like, is this going to happen to me? And it's been really challenging for me, because I feel this instinct to be like, no, no, we live in Western Massachusetts in this really nice little liberal, safe town, you know. And I'm like, we live in the world. And like anything can happen at any moment. And I don't want to sort of give her some sort of sheltered unrealistic response. And I'm just curious if you have anything to say about this, or maybe even a school counselors talked about this, which is being honest with kids about what is happening in this country and the dangers associated with some of that, and also trying to give them confidence that they have people that are looking out for them.

Claire Cain Miller: 1:00:03

So I did talk to a lot of people after Texas about this question. And honestly, with kids is really important. They said, with things like the pandemic, and with racism, it's really important to be you know, not to give too much information to have kids tell you what they know first and then wait for them to ask questions before you give them too much detail about things like COVID But to answer their questions and you know, be honest about the detail. Racism is something that you know, no kid can avoid knowing about especially a person of color and so from what I've heard and reporting on that is you know, these conversations should never be avoided because even if you think by avoiding them, they won't enter your kid's mind is just not true. They do enter kids minds from early in their lives and so they need to be talked about gun violence, I heard something slightly different, which is that it can be very, very hard for young kids to even contextualize that, to even, you know, go into a school, a young elementary student, knowing that that is a risk. And so to try to protect the youngest kids, or really think about what your kid can handle, which you know, as a parent, what how much they can handle. For older kids, there can be a trust issue, if they hear it from friends first, and friends on the internet, friends of older siblings, you know, they might hear it. So I did hear that if you think your kid can handle it, you can tell them first but minimize the amount of information. They don't need to know the details of what happened in Texas. And then the The final thing I heard on that is to reassure them, to the extent that it's accurate to say, we chose to live in a state where you're not allowed to carry a gun, if that is accurate and correct for your family. You can say our school keeps the doors locked during the day, we're doing that to keep you safe, if that's accurate for your school. So talk about the ways you can say this is rare, and you can say the ways that your family and your school and your community are working to keep kids safe. But you know, of course you have to be honest, there is no guarantee that everyone is safe from this or from anything else.

Liz Solomon: 1:02:12

Claire, thank you so much for coming on the show today and sharing all of your wisdom with our listeners, so I'm sure everyone's gonna get a lot out of it. I know I did.

Claire Cain Miller: 1:02:21

Thank you so much for having me it was an honor.

Kerry Seed: 1:02:33

That's our show. Special thanks to Gwen and Kim, whose voices you heard at the top of the show talking about their experiences in schools and to our guest Claire Kane Miller. Her reporting is really fantastic. You can follow her on Twitter at Claire cm that's at Claire cm. We also have the link in the show notes on our website. First Person plural.com. While you're there, you can check out guest BIOS transcripts and resources mentioned in today's episode. You can also follow us on Instagram at Keystep media. Of course, we'd love it if you would subscribe, rate and review. And if you enjoyed our discussion with Claire Kane Miller, check out some of our past interviews. The last one with George Cole razor had some incredible stories. Of course, none of this would be possible without our crack team. Our hosts are Daniel Goleman Hanuman Goleman and Elizabeth Solomon. Bryant Johnson creates the beautiful art you see with each episode. Our intrepid audio editor is Michelle Zipkin. This is the last show she's going to edit for us. We wish you well in all your future endeavors. Michelle, you've just done a bang up job here. So thank you so much. Zarina Kardon does marketing Our music is by Amber O'Hara and goes beats and I am Carrie seed. This podcast is sponsored by Keystep media, your source for personal and professional development materials focused on mindfulness leadership and emotional intelligence. We've got some exciting things planned for you in the days ahead. So take care of yourself and we'll talk soon