Karen Ziegler - Conflict and Leadership

At the height of the AIDS epidemic, Karen Ziegler was senior pastor of an LGBTQ church in Greenwich Village. In this interview she shares how she led her congregation through a period of intense conflict.

Karen led the church from 1978-1988 and then was a full-time organizer for several years in the AIDS community before becoming a nurse. Since retiring from work as a Nurse Practitioner 6 years ago she has been as a volunteer activist, serving as lead organizer for Democracy Out Loud Indivisible. She also works with the Poor People's Campaign: A National Call for Moral Revival and several other organizations. Having meditated on her own since 1979, she finally found a teacher in 1989 and since then has studied with teachers of vedic trantra, Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) Insight Meditation, plant medicine, and Tibetan Buddhism. She holds an MDiv from Union Theological Seminary, DMin from New York Theological Seminary, and an MSN from Duke University. Since 1917 Lama Rod Owens has been her primary teacher.

Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com

Transcript

Unknown: 1:03

Hi, I'm here with Cora who's my daughter. She's nine, say hi, hello, hello. And this week, we're continuing our series on conflict management. Of course, everyone has conflicts in their lives. And our guest today is Karen Ziegler. And Cora, way back before you were born, Karen was the minister of a church. And the Minister of a church has to make a lot of decisions. Some people will like those decisions, some people won't, but she's going to tell the story of a decision she made that was unpopular with a lot of people. Now, I know I make a lot of decisions that affect you have ever made a decision that you didn't like, sometimes you make me go to bed too early, and you wake me up too early, and I'm really sleepy. Interesting. So it seems to me like those things might be related. Like if you went to bed earlier, you would be less sleepy. Do you agree? Sometimes, but usually, if I go to sleep longer makes me more sleep because I want to keep sleeping. Oh, interesting. So when I make a decree like that, and say, Okay, you have to go to bed now. How does it make you feel? And what do you do about it? Sometimes, I'm fine with that. And sometimes I'm angry and frustrated and annoyed. And it's a little sad. Yeah, I can remember being frustrated with my parents about the same types of things. About a lot of people have gone through that. But that probably doesn't make it any better. Is there anything you'd like to tell me about how you feel or how you'd like to do things differently in the future? No. Nothing? Will even if you can't think of anything right now, I hope that we'll just keep talking because I'm sure we'll have lots of conflicts in the future. Because we love each other and we're in the same family and that's what happens. So let's just keep talking about Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, that's it from Korea and I stay tuned for Karen Ziggler. Welcome to first person plural, emotional intelligence and beyond. I'm Elizabeth Solomon. I'm hanuman Goleman. And I'm Daniel Goleman. Today we're continuing with the theme of conflict management. In our last episode, I talked with Erin wolf about his work facilitating dialogue over big issues such as faith than water rights. We touched on how systems can be designed for healing. Speaking of faith, our guest today is Karen Ziggler. At the height of the AIDS epidemic, Karen was the senior pastor of an LGBTQ plus church in Greenwich Village, New York. So for some years, well, forever, the LGBTQ community had been battling for our lives really fighting for our lives. Stonewall was in 1968, right down the street. And in 1980, about the time that Ronald Reagan got elected, there was a huge right wing attack on our community, a Anita Bryant, some people are old enough to remember a neat O'Brien dinner campaign against LGBTQ people. So meanwhile, there were not many places where gay people could be or trans people could be there were bars, there were bath houses, and there were churches. So we were very much feeling us against the world. We had very little money, people were unemployed or underemployed. Almost everybody. And other churches in our denomination were under attack and sometimes very physical ways. Clergy people were found murdered one colleague in the trunk of his car. Churches were burned with people inside. We had bomb threats and our church. So we were under siege as queer people, even in Greenwich Village. And so that was the larger context. And then, in the early 80s, AIDS started, and at first nobody knew what it was it was called gay Related Immune Deficiency, but people were dying all around us before there was ever a name for it. That sounds overwhelming. And in the midst of all this Karen was leading a congregation. On our show today, she shares her very personal experience with conflict management dam. Some days, it feels like conflicts are boiling over Everywhere I look, you know, I mean, particularly in the wake of the political climate, thinking about the mass amounts of violence that have been occurring around the country. You've researched conflict management extensively. And I'm wondering, what have you learned that could help us navigate these rough waters, I really liked the way Aaron wolf in our previous podcast, found a way for people to relate to each other as people, not around the conflict. And I think it's a very smart move, to connect with people in ways that they can connect back not to focus on your difference, but focus on the similarity. I think that's a very positive first step, thinking about today in the world, and all of the different factions that are just getting more and more toes in what's the what's the word like, ingrained in our own perspectives, and it's so hard to see other people's perspectives at this point, because we're so sure of ours, as people move into more sort of remote and digital worlds and are doing a lot more social interacting on social media. Some of the downfalls of that are that we tend to sort of surround ourselves with people who share a like perspective of us, there may be something like an optical illusion going on here, too, which is that we hear about the differences. When I was a reporter at The New York Times, we look for something that would get people anxious, worried fearful, that would be page one, because the brain is wired to remember the negative more than the positive. And I remember, there was a dialogue with the Dalai Lama, where psychologists Jerome Kagan pointed out the fact that on any given day, so much more positive happens between people the negative, but we only hear about the negative, we only hear about the differences. We don't hear about that looking the other person in the eye and realizing you're human too. And so somehow, I think it would help us, if we could call up and spotlight the similarities, as well as the differences instead of mothering. It's us. You know, one of the things that we engage in conversation with Karen about is just kind of like, particularly for leaders the inevitability of conflict, like there isn't really a way to lead with entirely avoiding conflict, right. And often, it's more a question of which conflict am I going to engage in, that is going to serve the higher good, the higher mission vision purpose, one of the elements of being a group, which is so important is that everyone feels a sense that they belong here. And one of the functions of a leader is in a sense to protect the group from all of the unpleasant realities that organizational life brings? Or is it to give the group some skills and tools to be able to navigate the inevitable unpleasant realities that exist? It's kind of a, it's an interesting kind of existential leadership question. I mean, it's in a way, a parenting question, I asked myself all the time, I'm like, to what degree can I sort of protect you and, and sort of insulate you from sort of the harsh realities? And actually, where is it my job to help you name what's happening around you, and figure out what kind of internal resources you have to navigate that, in fact, you could argue that a leader who helps that happen is protecting people. Let's listen to the interview with Karen Ziegler to hear about her experience of conflict management. So we're here to hear your story. Karen, I'd love to have you kick us off with a little once upon a time, or just bring us back in time. Sure, yeah. As you're talking, I'm realizing that there are so many layers of conflict in concentric circles that were surrounding us and that we were in. So once upon a time, it was the mid 1980s. It was in Greenwich Village. And I was the pastor of an LGBTQ church, and I was doing a lot of funerals. And people were getting sick and sometimes dying right away. And so by the time this happened, we we did have a name for this disease. But we felt really besieged by the responses of the families of those who are sick and dying by city government, which was completely unresponsive. Of course now we know that it was partly because Ed Koch, the mayor was gay, but we you know, we knew that now, but it wasn't a help but I think it was part of why he couldn't come to grips with this disease. That was Killing gay men. And meanwhile, what we were really seeing on the state, local and federal level was no help. Reagan never mentioned the word AIDS until his friend Rock Hudson became very publicly dead from AIDS. So we were also having that layer of conflict. And I feel like our community really rose to that occasion, that was the time of act up just amazing. Gay Activists, many of whom were sick themselves, knew they were going to die, but they were kind of delivering their bodies into hoping for something better people would bring the ashes of their dead lovers and dump them on the White House lawn. ACT UP was a hugely, hugely creative, angry, beautiful, activist organization, my favorite thing they ever did was put a giant condom on Jesse Helms house, right wing North Carolina Senator, I mean, it was a very large condom. And, you know, these activists were fighting for things like making condoms available. And there was a very famous protest in St. Patrick's Cathedral. So you know, that's a really beautiful history to read about. And in the middle of it, we knew we were kind of we felt we were in the center of the universe, and that so many things were meeting in people's coming to terms with sexuality with spirituality, we were kind of inventing what church might look like, if people came from all different denominations, and were diverse in every way, racially in terms of class, everything. And we were making, making it up as we went along. I was 24 years old, when I became pastor of that church. And the people who became my staff were also very young, some of them even younger than I was. Yeah, kind of reminds me of some of these stories like The Hobbit, you know, we were just kind of wandering around, not sure what we were doing. I mean, I just remember never feeling like I knew how to do what I was doing. But there was a lot of love between us, there was a tremendous faith. We truly knew and preached that God loved us. And our purpose was really bringing healing to ourselves and each other. And this was a time when gay men with AIDS, were getting pamphlets from their mother tracks that said, You're going to hell, and you deserve to die because you're gay. So that was the kind of work that we did, by speaking to people privately by laying on hands and praying for each other. We really understood that healing can happen even as people are dying, that healing can be a communal endeavor. And we came up with rituals, like the Stations of the Cross, anyone who's Catholic understands the Stations of the Cross, we're all the places where Jesus was tortured on his way to his death. And we would walk around Greenwich Village, and the places of the Stations of the Cross were places where queer people had been murdered. So we were really embodying in every way we could, what it meant to be people of faith, surrounded by these two great conflicts, and many of us were fighting for our lives, not me, but many of the men were literally fighting for their lives. And so meanwhile, you know, churches, it seems to me are especially prone to conflict. And I think churches have oppressed people can act out our trauma on each other it really easily we didn't have any understanding of trauma. You know, we were young, and it was 1985 or something. So our church in particular had kind of chewed up its first couple of pastors. It wasn't a very old church, but it had already gone through a number of pastors very quickly. So I think I always felt a little bit worried that I was going to be next. But I felt called to this church and I felt really connected to God. I prayed a lot and meditated a lot. And, you know, I think it was probably at about this time that I was begging God to be released from my calling to this church. And the answer that I would get is like, No, you know, you are a mess, but you're the best I've got right now. You need to just hang in there. You know, just hanging in there is enough. You know, so I did. Um, meanwhile, we had a staff a paid staff of, I think, just two other people. I don't think we paid our church secretaries. I think they were all volunteer. So I had an assistant and associate pastor, I was senior pastor, and they were both about my age, and they were very different. My associate pastor was a gay man. Very brilliant. He's still pastoring a After all these years, he had a real gift for programming for preaching for everything, except administration, he was maybe a bigger mess than I was in that area. And then there was another assistant pastor who was very Roman Catholic, she had really wanted to be a Roman Catholic priest. And she was very, very, in that way of thinking. But she was a good administrator, because unlike the rest of us, she had actually learned how to be an administrator in seminary, she had gone to Roman Catholic seminary, just, they just couldn't ordain her. And the other thing that she was doing was she was administrating a very large food pantry. It upset the neighbors, but it fed a lot of people. And it really helped us to feel like we were doing the work that a church needed to do. Not that the church didn't need to do the other stuff. And the other stuff we were doing was worship services that people really experienced as very healing, communal, powerful events. And also some programming that my associate had developed around men and women alike, he developed this men's program, which then the women replicated to some extent. And this really grew the church, and the church was already very lopsided. It was also already mostly done. But I think also because of AIDS, and there weren't a lot of places to go for the gay community. This really drew a lot of men. And so this was an era of lesbian, feminist separatism. When aids happened and our friends started to die and be sick and die, we stepped up and started taking care of them. And that broke something that kind of never came back, which was kind of a lesbian, feminist separatism. But we still had a powerful resentment, I think about feeling like such a minority in the church. Would you mind describing lesbian, feminist separatism? Sure, in the 70s, there were really powerful theological writers like Mary Daly, rosemary, Ruth, or who just died, who talked about the patriarchal aspects of the church. This was happening also, in many areas of the culture, like, many lesbians would go to the Michigan Women's Music Festival, which was closed not only to men, but also trans men and even boy children after a certain age so. So we were kind of trying to figure out what would it be like not to live in a patriarchal culture? How can we change our language and our worship, so that we're not worshipping men? How can we experience our own imminence, our own sense of God within us? Mary Daly, one of the things that she said that I always loved was when God is a man, the man is God. And so we were very, and actually the men were largely helping us with this. We were really changing our language, we did not talk about God and Father, you know, our, our jokey way of talking about the Trinity, not in worship was two boys and a bird. So we had to change how we talked about God, we had to talk about God in neutral languages or a mother or father, we had to talk about how we talked about Jesus, how we talked about the Kingdom of God, and some of the men including especially our associate pastor, were really creative at rewriting the hymnal, they rewrote the entire hymnal. But, you know, it was really a time of great creativity, trying to imagine a world that was not patriarchal, trying to create that world within our own community. That's great. That's really important context for this. Thank you. So we got to the point where three of us were paid staff, and we had no money. We were struggling to pay rent in New York City. That's a whole nother story. We really couldn't pay three staff people. And I was not feeling that I was released from my call to be there. So it seemed to me, number one, that we needed to only have two paid staff people. And also number two, I felt that who ever stayed, would be the next pastor of the church. I just had a sense of that because both of these people had very powerful ministries, and I knew they would want to stay. So when my associate pastors contract was up for renewal, I decided not to renew his contract, which was the same really as firing him. I really chose to intensify a conflict that was already going on. And my re reasoning for that was that he was by far, in my mind the most gifted, and he would have no trouble finding his own church. And I felt a little bit like the mother bird, kicking the baby bird out of the nest because he clearly could fly. I also knew that the men would be okay, that they would continue the programming that he started. But I didn't think the food pantry would continue without the assistant pastor. Plus, he was just as much of a disaster as an administrator as I was. So, you know, later I, I realized it was kind of like Sophie's Choice, you know, when the when the mother is forced to choose between her two children, because I, you know, I love them both very much. We were siblings, really, but I knew it was on me to make that kind of decision. I could have just resigned and let them fight it out. But I didn't feel free to do that. Yeah. Can you talk about that a little bit. Karen, what are the emotions that arose for you, as you were trying to make that decision? I knew that I had to be absolutely certain that it was the right thing for the church. I felt it was the the right thing for them. But I had to be absolutely certain. And so, you know, I prayed about that a lot. I meditated. I prayed about it a lot until I got to a place where I just felt like I could, that I could face the fire, really, and not waver in that. And it was, it was awful. You know, I felt like I was being flayed. It was really awful. And I had to be really sure. But I was sure. You know, I really was sure. And so I just remember having to keep saying to people individually and in front of the congregational meeting, just keep saying I believe this is the best thing for the church. This is really hard. It's really hard for me to and I think it's necessary. Yeah, I don't remember a whole lot about what else I would have said, but I do remember that I had to reach very deep into my own inner conviction that I had come to as I was making that choice. Yeah, I hear so much in there. I mean, I hear prioritizing the larger community, right over any one individual, I hear, like really going deep within and sort of seeking counsel and taking some time with that decision, so that by the time you arrive there, you can execute that with confidence. And I also just hear this peace around long term thinking, right, and the many ways that we have to sort of hold the larger picture or the larger vision or the larger strategy, and make immediate decisions that are incredibly disruptive. And I'm curious, you know, when you communicated this decision to let go of one of your colleagues, and continue on collaborating with the other, how you communicated that, and what those conversations were like, I have to be honest with you, I don't remember telling either one of them. I mean, I would have had to tell them, but I don't remember, I just remember having to explain it to other people, you know, the Board of Directors, the congregation, I just remember having to just keep returning to the feeling within myself, that no matter what happened, I was doing what I thought was right. What you're saying is so beautiful around conflict management, because for me, what it points to is the deep importance of us of having a North Star, something inside us that we really believe that we that we know is true inside us so that it helps us to weather the storm. It's that rock that we can hold to in the midst of a great storm. Yeah, and I think by then I had a lot of practice. You know, I think just being a queer person raised in the church, drove me to that place very early on, of having to trust myself above what people were telling me. And then I think, just holding the space in that church, as the pastor through a lot of trauma, I had to be connected to something that could hold that trauma for myself and to all of us. So I think by the time I went through that particular fire, I was kind of ready. But I think that kind of standing in one's own conviction does take a lot of practice. You know, practice in telling the truth, even when it's difficult to practice in, going inside and checking out one's true feelings and perceptions. So fortunately, I think that I had so much practice that it helped. So much of conflict is grief and the many ways grief manifests itself often in the form of rage. And so I love what you're talking about here, which is being able to say, Okay, I'm, I'm opening up this decision, or I'm igniting this conversation, and I know there's going to be grief. And I have the wherewithal to be with people in their grief as I tell them something that is, you know, not going to make them happy, quote, unquote. Yeah. Well, it was a time of such grief to. So it was very painful to add on to people's grief, you know, especially the grief of the men, because many of them were sick, or terrified. I think as much as many of us hate conflict, we are grateful for leaders who demonstrate the ability to make hard decisions and to make those hard decisions, considering the larger context. And and the greater good of the group. I had a relationship with this guy, you know, he was a friend, which was the most difficult aspect of it. How did you to navigate that? I think it was difficult for a while, we're still really good friends. But it was difficult for a while, but not long. You know, within a couple of years, I visited him at his new church. I certainly gave him a really great recommendation. And he got a great church, much better than ours in a lot of ways. I mean, it was the perfect thing. That was really confirming for me, the idea that he was ready to move on and there was a place for him, that would be better for him. And he was needed there. And he did a great job there. Yeah, I think the disruption in our relationship was brief, because I think that he understood a little bit about why it was necessary, even though it was hard. I think this is like kind of one of the most heartbreaking things that's happening right now in our kind of culture, where so many things are divided, is that people who actually share common interests share common values are at their essence wanting the same thing, are split apart by kind of lesser smaller issues that arise. So there are a few threads of of conflict, there's this larger context of queer people being oppressed, that was happening and still is happening, then there's this transition in church leadership that you were aware of, you were on your way out eventually. And you knew that whoever you kept, whichever assistant pastor you kept there would most likely be elected as the next pastor of that church. One of them was a beloved pastor in your church, who was a man, and was doing great work with men and women, but really, really supporting the men in the church. And another one was a woman who had an important food pantry that was helping the community. And you were also aware of this greater transition away from patriarchy. You were a part of stewarding in this context. Oh, wait, there is one more, which you haven't mentioned. And I'd love if you if you feel good to talk about it, your relationship with the woman who you didn't fire. Our relationship was kind of stable at this point. I do think and now that I consider it that I really wanted the next pastor of that church to be a woman. Because there were very few women pastors in those days. There were virtually no women pastors in Manhattan. And no women pastors of large churches in our denomination, of course, you know, our denomination was very tiny. But at that time, there were not even that many women in seminary was just the first wave of women in seminary. And then once we graduated, we tended to be assistants very rarely senior pastors of major churches, so So I think also that I really wanted that next pastor to be a woman. Yeah, so later, our relationship became very conflictual, but not yet, but there was a lot of conflicts all over the place. Because we all came from these different theological points of view, and some were very Evan Jellicle, and some were steeped in feminist theology and liberation theology. I just remember that no matter what I preached about, there would be people who thought I was going too far the other way, like, I remember this one sermon, it was the same. I preached one sermon and got two different comments. And one was, you never talk about Jesus, why don't you talk about Jesus? And the other was, all you ever do is talk about Jesus. Why do you do that? You know, and it was the same sermon so so it kind of illustrated to me, like I just needed to keep doing what I was doing and couldn't please everybody. I'm curious if you feel like maybe there was even more theological conflict, because you were one of the only queer places of worship. But when there's only one institution that serving an entire community, that's a really big deal, and a really big kind of responsibility for you to try and sort of meet the needs of everyone within that community. Yeah, that was that was huge. And, you know, the founder of our denomination, Troy Perry was a Pentecostal minister. And, you know, Pentecostals are led by the Spirit, it really had to be someone who could say, oh, the Spirit told me to start this church, because, you know, a higher, you know, an Episcopalian or Catholic priests could not have done it, you know, he would have or she would have been defrocked, immediately. So. So that's absolutely on target. Because in the denomination, there was a huge number of Evan Jellicle people, fundamentalist people. And that was really the roots of the church. So there was also always a class conflict going on. Because a lot of these Pentecostal and evangelical pastors had never been to seminary. And those of us who had managed I went to a very good seminary, and other people, especially in the northeast, did, too. And so you know, we also had this whole class conflict going on between the fundamentalists, and those of us who had been exposed to liberation theology, feminist theology, and even really Biblical studies. So that was all going on in the church, as well as in the denomination. And that was wild, really, that was wild, we would arrive at our district conferences in general conferences, and we, we would fight it out, you know, about inclusive language, people didn't want the language to change. And some of us felt like that was just absolutely essential. And so also in the church, yes, up through all those years, there were people who, who really had trouble getting on board with the ways that we were interpreting the Bible. And yeah, because we had no place else to go. I mean, that was the gift and the curse. I think it's a bigger gift and a curse though because, you know, we ended up with these very rich worship services, we we would have communion every week for the Catholics, but then we'd sing all these blood hymns, you know, all these Evan Jellicle hams that were so campy and so much fun to sing, you know, and there really was quite a, quite a movement of the Holy Spirit as well as the rituals of Catholicism. You remember any of the campy hymns could share with us? power in the blood? Does anybody know power in the blood? How's it go? That's a real campy one. But I can't remember the first line. Yeah, the hymns were the hymns were really wonderful. If at the end, we would sing, would you be free from the burden of sin? Yes, yes. Would you be free from the burden of sin, there's power in the blood power in the blood, you know, and they were really very campy. And for those of us who, like I was raised Presbyterian, so they were very foreign to me. And I've never really been into the blood of Jesus at all. But for many people, you know, those kinds of hymns were really important. That was one really cool thing was we learned to cherish each other's traditions. That was really beautiful. I'm just hearing to a lot about like, the importance of song, the importance of ritual, right, that even within these sort of concentric circles of conflict, there are these things around which everyone comes together and kind of unites and bonds and I'm wondering, you know, as you're sitting there singing these wonderful campy hymns together, what it felt like in that moment, right, when you're not sort of debating about anything, but you're all just coming together in that fashion. Yeah, it was really beautiful. You know, at the at the end of the service, well, you know, communion was always very powerful because we celebrated an open communion. So anyone who just walked in the church could take communion. And I just remember that we always would hold people and pray with them. After we serve them communion, people would come up in groups and then we would individually hold people or sometimes friends or lovers would take communion together. And so we would, you know, lay on hands and pray for people and they would sometimes tell us what specifically they wanted to pray for. So, you know, for people who came from a sacramental tradition, like Catholicism, who had been told that they were sinners and going to hell and certainly could never take communion. And, you know, don't set foot in the church again, to be able to come and not only take communion, but also be prayed for in that way with such love, you know, and touch and caring presence, you know, that kind of presence really heals trauma. And so, so often people would just weep. And I know that what we were doing very often was just healing people in a way that allowed them to move forward in a whole different way, you know, not carrying the burden of shame and of rejection from God, you know, understanding that that connection had never been broken for them with God. And then the end of the service, I remember, we would always go all the way around the perimeter of the church and hold hands and sing, there's a sweet, sweet spirit in this place. And there was there really was, how does that sound? That sound goes, there's a sweet, sweet speed spirit in this plane. And I know that it's the spirit. There are sweet hair expression expressions on each face. And I know they feel the spirit. Sweet, tone. Sweet. See right here with filling us with your. For this blessing, we lift our hearts to the without a doubt, we'll know that we have been renewed, when we shall leave this place. Thank you. One thing that I am really drawn to about this story is that this was a community that was facing conflict, both externally and internally. And yet, due to the nature of the community, you stayed together and faced it together. And that feels like something that we're missing at large in society today, where we have plenty of conflict, and then we go back to our small bubble, and fester in conflict instead of sitting next to somebody else in a pew and singing with them, which is a totally different, it expands the human relationship so that we're not just in conflict with this person. We're also human with this person in the world. And that feels so precious to me, that community part of it, and it was a bubble. It was a bubble. I'm not sure that homophobic person would have been comfortable there. I know they wouldn't have been, you know? Yeah, I mean, this, this, to me, what you're saying kind of speaks to this idea of, for me boundaries. You know, I just came up with this with an acquaintance who made an incredibly homophobic remark. And I realized, I can't be with this person. So you know, I think this both sides ism, has the limit in that when the other side is actually denying my humanity. I don't want to sing hymns with them. That's where I draw the line. I think you bring up such a beautiful point, which is like the distinct difference between having a boundary and saying no, and being in a state of conflict. And it makes me think that actually those two things are conflated. When they're not the same thing, right? Having a boundary can be an act of self respect, and an act of dignity. And doesn't actually have to take on the aggression or violence that we typically associate conflict with. And that feels like something that I can even feel it feel the difference in my body between like a boundary kind of erected with dignity and a boundary erected from a place of being kind of violently anti something else. Yeah. I love that. You just said that. What are you thinking, Karen? Well, I guess I feel like this is a really important question for us now in this country, too. You know, what, what are the values that we can agree on? You know, we've had hundreds of anti gay and anti trans bills passed nationwide, one just is probably on the verge of getting passed here in North Carolina. And there is no way that I can imagine that any of them are okay, you know, we can't co exist if some of us are not allowed to exist. You know, I'm endlessly disappointed that everyone can't draw that line, you know, because it is so true. You know, they came for what was it, the immigrants and I said nothing. And then they came for the, whatever it was, and they said nothing. And then there's just nobody left. And I'm feeling a sense of deja vu now, since Trump was elected, like when, when Reagan was elected, there was such a sharp turn toward economic injustice that has just continued so quickly. And right wing violence. This is a very similar time, in many ways, but on steroids. And so once again, it feels like there's a really pretty small group of people actually fighting for justice for, for love, really, you know, and just like when people were dying of AIDS, most people don't seem to be involved. I'm terrified of that. I'm terrified that we had a 19% voter turnout rate in Durham, North Carolina, you know, in the primary election, I'm terrified that 1/3 of Americans didn't vote in the last presidential election. And I'm terrified of the disinformation and misinformation campaign by one of our political parties, which may mean that we're just going to keep moving into fascism really quickly. So what what is going to stop that, I think, is by not just people of color, not just queer people making the boundary, not just poor people, but everyone saying, this is not the country I want, and jumping in. Karen, I was just wondering, you know, as kind of, I'm going to call you like one of our one of my queer elders, who's been a part of the LGBTQ movement for so many decades. How you where you see the movement now in terms of conflict, not just with the outer world, the obvious things like don't say, gay bill, and all of the, you know, anti trans policies that are going around, but conflict within the movement. Because I've been thinking a lot about some real kind of internal conflicts within the LGBT community between kind of, you know, people who've been around for a long time, and the younger generation and differences in language and even some disagreement around the use of the word queer, you know, a lot of people feeling like, oh, queer is a word that was used against us, how dare you adopt it and bring it into the sort of dominant vocabulary? And I'm just wondering kind of what any reflections or observations you have on that, and what your understanding of that is, or how you make sense of that? Yeah, it right now, I work in an activist community that's mostly straight. I'm not really connected to the gay community in many ways. And I, you know, I know that there are generational conflicts and every activist movement, and that's just gonna happen. You know, I certainly love what younger LGBTQ people are doing with gender. You know, it's making us really conscious of that. I love that. Yeah, personally, I really like the word queer, it has a long history. And that's why I hold to it. You know, I feel like right now, we are in as dire a time in a different way, you know, because of the climate crisis, because of the crisis of fascism. Destruction of our democracy, like it is just as perilous a time, certainly for the next generation, as it was for those men with AIDS, who knew they were going to die very soon. And so I hope that enough people can wake up to the urgency of the situation and do what they can to preserve democracy, preserve the planet, stop the attacks on vulnerable populations. You know, it's like an all hands on deck moment, you know, and I think that we knew that and, and we rose to that occasion, largely. And so I think that right now, there are a lot of people doing what they can. I hope there are more than I can see, you know, and I and I hope that there aren't too many gay people who are lulled by feeling like these attacks aren't going to touch them. So let's let's get the end of the story. You you had to make a decision about this associate an assistant pastor one of that you were going to let go, which means the other one was going to stay on and most likely become pastor when you leave. And she did. And she became pastor when I left, and she did a fine job, that food pantry continued. Now there's a shelter. They bought a church in Manhattan. I have no idea how they managed to do that. Yeah, she's still there. Both of them are still pastoring them. Yes, yes. And when you look back on it all, do you have any general reflections that you learned that you'd like to share from that experience? You know, I think that was the right thing to do. But it was only borne out by history. Who knows, maybe everything would have turned out great. If I had done something different. I don't know what I should have done. But I'm mostly really grateful for that time. I was pastor of that church for 10 years, and really, really grateful. And then when I left, I've never really looked back, either. So when were you relieved of your service? 1988. So it's 1978 to 1988. That's a good chunk. Yeah, yeah, I was 35 When I left, and then I worked in the AIDS community for the next five years. Thank you so much, Karen, for telling us your story. And for spending time with us. It's such a pleasure to see you. You're welcome. It was really a joy to talk to you. Thank you, Karen. Thank you. Thanks for listening to our interview with Karen Ziggler. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. And tune in next time when we'll talk with author and former hostage negotiator George coal reserve, about lessons he learned in moments of crisis. Before we go, it's time for Ask Dan. Have you ever wanted to ask Dan Goleman anything about emotional intelligence, mindfulness meditation or leadership or maybe purpose or life in general? If you've got questions, Dan has answers submit your question via voicemail at Keystep media.com/ask. Dan, your question could be selected and featured on an upcoming episode. This week's question is about the relationship between empathy and emotional intelligence. Dan, I've really enjoyed the series on conflict management. And you've mentioned a couple of times how empathy can be key in navigating conflict. I'm wondering, What can I do within myself to be a more empathetic person? I think it helps at the start to realize that there are different kinds of empathy. One is cognitive empathy, where you understand how the other person thinks, you don't just get stuck in your own story. But you listen for theirs. And you try to understand the terms that they use themselves to explain the world to themselves. This is called their mental models. This helps you be a better communicator with the other person. It also helps you with certain kinds of empathy, where you can say I see your point of view when actually being in the second kind is emotional empathy, where you feel what the other person feels. And this happens because of the social brain circuitry where brain to brain we form a silent and visible instantaneous link with the other person's brain and emotions pass back and forth through that link. This is why emotions are so contagious, but it helps you empathize, because you not only know how the person thinks but how they feel. And then the third kind of empathy, which is very different is feeling that you care about feeling a sense of concern. Each of these kinds of empathy is based in different brain circuitry. And the concern is based in the circuitry that is the same as a parent's love for a child. So you're really deeply caring about the other person you want what's best for them. And I think that the more you can let the person know that this is motivating you, I think the easier it will be to heal the rift that's our show Special thanks to Cora, whose voice you heard at the top of the show and to our guest Karen Ziggler. She writes a newsletter about her work as an activist, you could sign up at Tiny letter.com/karen Zig, that last part is Ka RENZIG. That's tiny letter.com/karen zyk. We also have the link in our show notes on our website at first person plural.com While you're there, you can check out our guest BIOS transcripts and resources mentioned in today's episode. You can also follow us on Instagram at Keystep media. If you enjoyed our discussion with Karen Ziggler. Check out some of our past interviews. I like the episodes with Peter haberle and Dan Harris. None of this would be possible without our incredible team. Our hosts are Daniel Goleman, Hanuman Goleman and Elizabeth Solomon. Brian Johnson creates the beautiful art you see with each episode. Our audio editor is Michelle Zipkin Zarina Cardin does marketing. Our music is by Ambro Hader and goes beats and I'm Carrie see. This podcast is sponsored by Keystep media, your source for personal and professional development materials focused on mindfulness, leadership and emotional intelligence. Next time we'll dive even deeper into conflict management with our guest, former hostage negotiator George colorizer. Until then, take care of yourself and we'll talk soon