Aaron Wolf: Transforming Conflict

In this episode, Hanuman and our guest, Aaron Wolf discuss conflict management. He's a water resources geographer at Oregon State University and a trained mediator. Wolf facilitates dialogue between groups to help them find a shared vision around some big issues. Faith that gets to the core of our identity and water rights, which govern our very survival. 

First the hosts discuss Dan Goleman's own experience with conflict, sharing how he had to manage a conflict with his department at Harvard before they would endorse his plan to submit a thesis on meditation.

Then we talk about Aaron Wolf's career mediating conflicts around the world. They discuss lessons learned from international conflicts over pollution, cultural faux pas, finding humility in conflict and what it feels like when there is change in the room, 

We finish up with another installment of Ask Dan. This time the question is about how to love and know one's self. 

Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com

Transcript

Kerry Seed: 1:06

Hi, everyone. This week on the show, we're starting a series on conflict management. And we're going to talk with Aaron Wolf, who helps people when they have problems with big things like water management rights. And he said that one thing he does when he brings groups together who are having a dispute, has asked them three things they have in common. So today, I have two volunteers here. What's your name? Dan. And yours, Cora. Okay. And Dan, your core is Mother. Yes. Have the two of you ever had a conflict with each other? Definitely. All right. And what are three things you have in common, you can both talk.

Cora: 1:49

We both are able to speak Chinese and write it.

Dan: 1:54

We're both female. We're awesome.

Kerry Seed: 2:02

Thank you that didn't take long. And now let's turn it over to the hosts who are going to talk about conflict management. Thanks for tuning in.

Daniel Goleman: 2:19

Welcome to first person plural, emotional intelligence and beyond. I'm Daniel Goleman.

Hanuman Goleman: 2:25

I'm hanuman Goleman.

Elizabeth Solomon: 2:27

And I'm Elizabeth Solomon.

Hanuman Goleman: 2:28

Today we're beginning a series of interviews about conflict management. Our guest is Erin Wolf. Just so everyone knows Aaron is my cool older cousin, and Dan's nephew.

Daniel Goleman: 2:40

And in fact, Aaron and my wife, Tara Bennett, Coleman and I have been doing workshops together on chemistry of connection and some of the core ideas in chemistry of connection, Aaron has worked into his own take on conflict management.

Elizabeth Solomon: 2:59

Aaron, certainly a friend of the show, I'm curious, are we gonna get into a family reunion gone bad today,

Hanuman Goleman: 3:05

actually, he's a guy that I always looked up to on on visits to my grandmother's house, and now he's doing fascinating work. He's a water resources geographer at Oregon State University and a trained mediator that sounds a little bit dry. But water resources brings him into right into the heart of some really fascinating human experience. It gets. It involves faith and water rights, which is about the very survival of the people that he's working with.

Elizabeth Solomon: 3:36

And you've researched and written extensively about conflict management. And I'm curious from your perspective, how Aaron's focus on shared values in this interview aligns with what you've learned.

Daniel Goleman: 3:48

Well, one of the facets that Aaron uses in his work is finding a way people can connect. And this, of course, is come straight out of chemistry of connection, that workshop with Tara Bennett, Goleman. And I, and actually, from her book, mind whispering, but from my point of view, I think that conflict management really hinges on the ability to find a way to keep people linked, even as they're disagreeing.

Elizabeth Solomon: 4:21

You know, Dan, one of the things that comes to mind to me just thinking about, you know, your early studies at Harvard, and you choosing to pursue and embark upon the study of meditation, for example, at a time when that was kind of not part of the Zeitgeist or the conversation, particularly in academia. And I'm curious to hear, you know, sort of thinking about that as something that's potentially conflictual. How did you kind of use values or some sort of shared vision in order to, you know, quote, unquote, kind of influence Harvard into supporting you?

Daniel Goleman: 4:53

A while ago, long time ago, actually, when I was at Harvard, I had decided that I would do my doctoral dissertation on meditation. However, my professors were very psychoanalytic. And they thought this was a really stupid idea. And so I had to navigate a real, I had to manage conflict there because they were against it. And yet, I really felt strongly that this is what I wanted to do. So it seemed to me what I needed to do. What I needed to do was to manage the conflict, you know, to it was a tense situation, and that's a hallmark of conflict management. But I had to tactfully bring the disagreement in the open and come up with a solution that everyone could endorse. And this is of course, something leaders who take the time to understand different perspectives work toward finding a common round in which everyone could agree, but I didn't know that at the time, I was just going blind, it seemed to me, I wanted to do this, I had to get everyone to agree, I had to acknowledge that they had, you know, a point of view that I could see, but that I didn't agree with it. And that there was a higher value that we all could agree on, which was, hey, let's find some science to apply here.

Hanuman Goleman: 6:17

You were in a school of psychology. So were you also looking towards the future of, of this study and thinking about how you're expanding the field? Well, one

Daniel Goleman: 6:27

of the things that kept me going, was that I actually felt, you know, deep in my heart, that meditation could have value for many, many people. And that if there was a study from Harvard, which is what it was, that showed that it had some value, people might try it out. I think that, at some level, I felt that what we needed was a culture shift in values, that this could help that along. I had no idea that, you know, decades later, this would be very commonplace. At the time, it was very radical, I was a real outlier, taking a risk. But I felt strongly that there could be benefit here for lots of people.

Hanuman Goleman: 7:11

In our interview, Erin talks about some cultures and faiths that have created systems and rituals for helping a community heal from conflict. Can you think of any examples from your own research of systems designed to manage conflict? Especially? Well,

Daniel Goleman: 7:30

you know, this is something that I think modern civilization has reached some limits on. I think the European Union is a beautiful example of an ideal type of how we might have an institution that transcends local needs, local boundaries, and local vision, we need a lot more of that I can think of traditional cultures that have rituals for managing conflict. And it's part of the system of that culture. For example, the cooking Bushman when someone has a disagreement with someone else, they don't speak to that disagreement specifically, but they spend all night dancing and singing together as a very healing effect.

Elizabeth Solomon: 8:19

Beautiful. Let's listen to the interview with Aaron Wolf.

Hanuman Goleman: 8:24

So it's really fun to be doing this with you. Thank you for being here. Of course, it's a pleasure kind of mine. And as an introduction, actually don't know your title and your professorship.

Aaron Wolf: 8:35

Yep. So I'm a Professor of Geography at Oregon State University. And I run a program in water conflict management, which means when either countries share rivers or groundwater aquifers, or or different groups of stakeholders need to figure out how to collectively manage a body of water. That's something that our center focuses on. How do you how do you have these difficult conversations with water being the vehicle that that brings people in into the room, and then from there have also been involved increasingly, in both the interfaith and interfaith dialogues between faiths and within states, and also between government agencies sometimes, believe it or not even even our government agencies can have disputes with each other?

Hanuman Goleman: 9:27

It's interesting work to be drawn to. And I wonder what it is about the work that initially got you involved in it? What draws you to this work?

Aaron Wolf: 9:37

Oh, sure. Well, as you know, I'm I grew up I grew up in San Francisco and spent a lot of time in the Middle East. And I think in both those places, water is both a source of real tension between either stakeholders in the case of California or countries in the case of the Middle East, but also it turns out again, as a vehicle for dialogue, and I think oftentimes, if we focus on politics, we focus on the things that divide us, you can just bang your head against the wall, there just is no way oftentimes to find any kind of approach to to better solutions, if you only focus on the political aspects. And when I understood that the politics and and the resources were intertwined, and that you could use that connection as a way to help focus a dialogue. It was very attractive to me So first, I became very versed on the technical side, I was trained as a groundwater hydrologist and worked for the US Geological Survey for a number of years. But then increasingly understanding that the science is a great baseline but only gets you so far. You Have a roomful of angry people and you come in and you say, Don't worry, you don't have to be angry anymore, I figured out your solution. All it does is make them angrier. So that's sent me back for training on the policy side on the conflict, where we used to call conflict resolution side. And to really learn more around how do you help guide difficult conversations? How do you help people find their shared values? How do you work together towards well, really towards a better future?

Hanuman Goleman: 11:21

So you just articulated what the work is really clearly it's helping two sides come to some terms that they can agree on. I wonder what it is for you about that process that really resonates with you in the world? Well, sure,

Aaron Wolf: 11:37

as I've become older and kind of, you know, move from working from my head to my heart, if you will, and thinking less in terms of kind of tangible things that can be negotiated to more energetic work, how do you how do you bring healing energy into a room, that's hugely gratifying work, when you're when you're a part of, even in a small wave eat went for an instant, people who had been on opposing sides can come to some kind of a plan together? Joint understanding, I think, literally energetically there's, there's a positive impact the one gets, I think the same people who work in one on one helping people work with their internal conflicts, people in psychology or psychiatry, I think there are some in those fields who get energy from it, for being in a classroom where we're, you're helping somebody see, profoundly new understanding for the first time, these are just moments of transformation, that, that it's a privilege to be a part of, and I think, I think that's the part and in the end of the day, with so much pain and divisive pneus. And in the world, I think it's incumbent on all of us to heal where we can to do whatever little bit of work of of reaching out and helping build bridges, it's incumbent on all of us to do whatever we can towards those ants. Do you

Hanuman Goleman: 13:09

think of yourself as a healer?

Aaron Wolf: 13:11

No, I, I think of myself as a vehicle or a conduit if at all. I mean, you ask the motivation. And and and I know these kinds of concepts are comfortable for you personally hunt him on, but also I imagined listeners to this podcast is, this is the work, right? I mean, all of us are, are deeply embedded in this in this energetic work trying to bring about a better age. And so you know, rooted individually in my own my own faith, but also kind of more ecumenically around using faith based tools or using faith based understandings of energy and of shared values. I think it's well beyond any individual. So I don't think of myself really as an individual but but more as, as an organism within within a movement

Hanuman Goleman: 14:05

Spoken like a true healer. Would you give an example of your work? And really start at the beginning? You know, how did how did people come together?

Aaron Wolf: 14:15

Sure. So as I said, I usually get called when either either different countries are having disagreements around a shared water body, a shared river that flows from one country to another, or when different groups within a country are having problems, figuring out how to how to manage their shared resources. And so in this particular case, I was asked to help facilitate a dialogue between four countries, the Four Lower Mekong countries, so this is Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam and Thailand. And they've been working together fairly well, for decades. They have a commission and have a formal body, but from time to time issues come up that are contentious or or that that need a bit of facilitation. And one of the issues is when pollution crosses a border, identifying what the source is and how to mitigate the negative impacts of the pollution. It's hard enough to do within a country. So we have those challenges within the US. But it's it's that much harder when the pollution crosses an international border. So that's how I was invited. Again, the representatives from these four countries in the end, they're dealing with this issue of cross border, environmental impacts. And I should preface there are a couple of principles that I've come to understand either through through my own faith path or through Have more formal training and, and conflict. And one of the one of the key principles is that when you see anger, listen for vulnerability. And so immediately as as the meeting started and you're looking for, for the setting, generally these meetings are in in very nondescript international chains. Although I have to say, in Southeast Asia, even these big chains often have beautiful gardens. And so fortunately, we had a big wall of glass overlooking a gorgeous garden. And so, immediately, I mean, as we started, it was clear that there was real tension between three countries and one of the countries and really this came up instantly as we made the most basic of proposals is, shall we monitor using this well known process for monitoring three countries said yes, one country said no. Shall we use this long established list of pollutants to help us identify the sources of pollution? Three countries said yes, one country said no, and even innocuous thanks, shall we go to lunch at noon, three countries said yes. One country said no. So as when you see this kind of, of real intransigence. You know, something's up. I mean, that doesn't take a lot of training to figure out. And so you go through in your mind, what, what are the possible stories here, and, and oftentimes, when a party is digging in their heels, either they have the most power in the room, in which case, they don't want to move, or they have the least power in the room, and they're feeling vulnerable. And knowing what little I knew about the politics of the region, I assumed it was it was the ladder. And, and so there really is nowhere to go. I mean, if there, we'd already established that any decision making would be consensus based. And so with three to one, there was nothing at all that that we can do so so I did what I do when I'm stuck, which was I called the break. And I asked the delegate, if if she would take a walk with me in the in this beautiful garden. And as she did, of course, again, what you learn about anger is that it's often expressed outward. But again, the vulnerability is internal. And the best way to understand it is to, is to listen. And I mean, listen, really deeply, in ways that we're not very good at in the west, to listen not with your ears, but listen from your heart, and to give lots and lots of space for the inevitable venting, which then will give rise to, to the actual concern. And so that's precisely what happened, we're walking and sure enough, a lot event in those other countries, they're trying to take advantage of us those other countries, they're bullying us every which way those other countries, they don't know who they're dealing with, we're gonna stand our ground. And you listen, and you listen, you listen. And then what happens in cases like this, at some point, she had vented to the end. And there's a sigh. To be honest with you, Aaron, I'm not sure that our technical people are up to the same standards of the other three countries. And they're, you understand what the vulnerability is, and and heighten, don't forget, this is Southeast Asia, where honor and face are hugely important, right. So to show that kind of reluctance on the part of your technical people would would have cost her honor in the room. And she's very reticent to show any kind of lack of capacity. So we continue on and we go back in the room. And that's where then with that kind of understanding, you can help shape the process to where instead of rushing to try and move forward, we now take a step back and I said, Look, we've all we've been going about this wrong, and it's my fault. We've been trying to, to move forward on all these regulations and so on, what we probably ought to be doing is establishing a joint a collaborative, unified way to do the technical work. Why don't we start with basic capacity building workshops, where we're all getting on the same page for a process that we all agree on for the Mekong way to do this work, at which point she jumped in delightedly and said, That's a good idea. We can have the first workshop in our country. So that's the kind of thing where the importance of listening comes up the importance of the signal of anger of somebody's amygdala being triggered, representing a certain amount of violence. ability and given the space for for the actual stories to come out so that what's truly happening can be addressed rather than the initial positions. And the things that divide us all of that I think, come out in this setting.

Hanuman Goleman: 21:06

When you get all of those folks into the room, and three, say yes. And one says no. And three, say yes. And one says no. What does that feel like for you? I have assumptions. But I'd love to hear what that experience is actually, like, because you're in this position where you're tasked with helping them get beyond that. Yeah, I

Aaron Wolf: 21:30

think, you know, like, like teaching like facilitation, I think you start, you know, maybe in your 20s and 30s, working in your head and thinking that you have some obligation to the answer. And that people are looking to you for an answer. And over time, I've kind of dropped down and now I really lead with, with my heart, and my intentions are there to be of service. And my experience, increasingly, is when you're transparent, and you're open about what you can and can't do. People are very generous. And, and all I'm there to do is to is to guide the process. And sometimes the process gets somewhere and sometimes it doesn't, it's not a reflection on me either way, again, I I keep working to remove my myself as a as an agent. And in any of this. I'm a conduit and a facilitator. And so as, as I do that, if I don't know, I'll say I don't know, if I feel stuck, we'll take a break, if if things aren't working, we'll postpone and figure out what we can do before the next meeting. And these are totally comfortable, increasingly comfortable outcomes for the processes that I'm involved with.

Hanuman Goleman: 22:45

So you, you're just cool as a cucumber the whole time that like as tensions are building, hey, put

Aaron Wolf: 22:52

it this way I aspire to cucumber coolness, I don't know,

Hanuman Goleman: 22:57

what does it actually like, then?

Aaron Wolf: 22:59

Well, it's like any kind of practice animal and I know, I know, you you've done your share of understanding what's happening, being able to observe what's happening inwardly and and just letting it be, you know, one of the tactics that when people in very high tense situations are kind of being pushed towards realize they're, they're about to come to an agreement. One of the tactics is they all gang up on the facilitator. And oftentimes, it's very, very personal ways. And, and again, in my 20s, and 30s, that was deeply concerning, in my ethnic deluded, flashed all over the place, and I get defensive and, and increasingly, I just am able, at least to be self aware enough to recognize that most of the time, it really is not about me that this is this is a tactic and not to take it personally. Because again, I aspire not to be there as as an individual,

Hanuman Goleman: 23:57

it's a beautiful aspiration, I find it hard to I mean, I have aspirations as well. And I find it hard to actually arrive at the most of the time, I find myself navigating the waters, towards my aspirations or forgetting about them completely.

Aaron Wolf: 24:17

It's a practice, it's a practice like any other and what I've learned and also learned in doing workshops with your father is, I think, so when when you feel the the amygdala signaling, what I've learned over time is really instead of letting that then lead into an emotional response, that then leads into a story that then leads into another more and more emotion and you end up in this horrible death spiral. So you're, you know, you're stuck in traffic on the on the freeway, and you're late to a very important meeting and your battery and their phone is dead, and you can't let them know. And you start and your amygdala goes off and and you know, there's going to be all this shame, and they're going to talk about you and maybe you lose your job. And that then drives the emotional angst, which in turn, leads to more and more story about how this is the worst thing that could possibly happen ever. So learning to take the amygdala capture rather as as a leader in this process, and as a signal that you need to pay attention. So the other route is your heart's thumping, your muscles are tightening up, whoa, okay, that's a signal. I need to pay attention. What's going on? So what I tell myself explicitly in these situations, is stop and breathe and listen. So just the stop noticing the amygdala capture. Go to the breath, which helps center and cut off that horrible, you know, the emotion and then the story, just focus on the breath for a second, and then ask myself move into listening mode, what am I being called to do in this moment? And so then you have a choice, you're stuck in your car, there's nothing you can do you really, you have two choices and only two choices. Either you can be late to this important meeting, and anguish, or you can simply be late to the meeting. Those are the only two choices you have. And if you're conscious that those are it, what the heck, radio works to roll down the windows, how often do you get a couple of minutes to yourself just with no obligation and nothing to do and nothing to think about? And just to be what a great gift. Right? So that's where when somebody is screaming at you about your western stooge and, and you have no business being here to begin with, and your skills are the skills of a kindergartener, whatever it is, me and my amygdala have a happy little conversation. And we go into listening mode. And I think moving up from the physical to the emotional, it's stop and breathe and listen. But then, and I think this is true in any difficult conversation about politics or about policies or anything else. Once you've done that, and you're in listening mode, to move into the mental space, you can ask, What can I learn in this setting? Right? So somebody disagrees with you fervently around politics and your impulses to start screaming back? And then you're screaming at each other? And that doesn't benefit? Anybody? Ask, okay, here's somebody, human being has very different views, what can I learn in this situation, which immediately helps ease some of the combative energy in the room. And then if you feel very brave, and you want to move up to the to the spiritual place, you can ask what do I share with this person? And that's a very, very powerful question, especially when you disagree with each other really, really fervently to move into what can I learn here? And then finally, what do I share with this person, and I mean, on a on a profound, transcendental place, what do I share can be something as as fundamental as the the light of the Divine, right? At some level, we're all connected. And so if you can see that, I mean, literally visualize that in somebody with whom you have visceral disagreement. It's a powerful thing to do. And I want to say with extreme caveat, if you're actually unsafe, either physically or emotionally, don't do any of this stuff, just get to safety, that should go without saying, but it doesn't always mean.

Hanuman Goleman: 28:36

So before you get into the room, this is a particular mindset that you're talking about. It's not necessarily how we all go through the world. And is there something that you do to prepare for meeting of this consequence,

Aaron Wolf: 28:50

it's nicer to ask on a mug, because it for my book, I asked a lot of facilitators this conversation. And it's really interesting, so many folks are rooted in the kind of scientific, rational, technical world. And when you ask this question, it turns out, most of them have deep spiritual lives that were just trained never ever to ask about. And and so a guy I know who works for very technical agency that's actually housed in the Department of Defense, he talks about invoking the spirit of the Virgin Mary in the room when he does. And so sure I have my own personal practice, I have about an hour of prayer and meditation in the morning, that helps route me and then going in, I'll kind of set an intention for the process. And then it from there on, it really is just trying to be present,

Hanuman Goleman: 29:43

I think when we're working with anybody that that we can often overlook is the cultural fluency and understanding where somebody is coming from in their own background, and how what we say to one person sits very differently when we say it to another person. And so navigating that in itself, I assume is a whole area of study. So let's start with that. I think. Do you have any stories about navigating cultural differences in these conflict management contexts? Sure.

Aaron Wolf: 30:19

I run into cultural faux pas all the time. And oftentimes, I find out about them when I run into him. So I know enough to know that that I don't know. And so I think the base and I know the best is is the Jordan basin between Israelis and Arabs. And they're I mean, every every geographic location has at least three names and each one is tied to lots of history and political nuance, and so calling the wrong thing in the world. Long ways is one of those triggers. But it can be something even in our own backyard, I went here to Provo, Utah, I was working with the US Bureau of Reclamation, on Western water issues, and showed up for an eight o'clock meeting, which meant that I had been up since four o'clock my time and showed up and like most, you know, most Americans are just ready to get to work, let's just get to work. Let's not get to know each other, or share anything about each other, let's just get to work. And I was a bit taken aback and say, Can I at least get a cup of coffee, and they all kind of looked at me. And in the back of my mind, I'm going, Oh, Provo, Utah, coffees a trigger. I mean, it's, it's the kind of thing you know, had I been more awake at that I've been more caffeinated, I would recognize that I'm in the heart of Latter Day Saints country and coffee was not something that most people ask for when they show up. And I would have been more culturally sensitive to my surroundings. And that's the kind of thing that happens all the time, all the time, you know, being being aware of now I'm more aware of when when Ramadan is happening. And so, you know, recognizing that people will need breaks for prayer to eat or break the fast or different traditions, something as simple as as eye contact, you know, we in the West, where we're, if somebody doesn't make eye contact, we're suspicious of them, or firm, grasping handshake, if they don't do that we're deeply suspicious and recognized. And there's cultures all over the world, including indigenous cultures within North America, where eye contact is seen as threatening and offensive. And you certainly never make eye contact across genders in some places, or between status and hierarchy and other places. And this idea of this grasping handshake, I've had worked a bunch with, with tribes out here in the West, and we were talking about with a lot of tribes, it's much more of a kind of a gentle said, what is it? What is it with white people, they gotta grab everything and, and try and choke it. It's like, just connect with me just go. That's all I'm asking. Just connect. And so these are the kinds of things that like I said, I my experiences, if you go with good intentions, and openness about what you do, and don't know, people are often very, very forgiving, but I certainly don't try and bluff my way through stuff or, or, and that's why as I say, I always work with somebody local, who will be able to inform about all these different issues. One of the things I do is as an icebreaker is I set people up for what they think is an arm wrestling game, but they directions. If you listen to the directions, it's clear that it's a collaborative game, they should be working together. But as soon as they get into this arm wrestling position, they stop listening, and they're in what's called entrench thinking, and they just no matter what I say, when I say go, they're all armwrestling, even though the the way to actually win is to collaborate with each other and get as many points that way. Well, I do this in Southeast Asia in the Mekong in another meeting, just to break the ice and get people thinking about their preconceptions and stuff. And so they're in armwrestling position, and I say go and nobody moves. Nobody moves nada. Not that they're not struggling. They're not nothing. And so again, I'm working with my my colleagues that kind of saddled up. So what's going on? I mean, do they know how to how to play? Sure they know how to arm wrestle. So why aren't they moving? said, Well, it's it's a matter of honor. It's a matter of faith. I said, So wait, they don't want to lose, they'll they'll lose face if they lose. He said, No, they don't want to win because they would cause the other person to lose faith.

Hanuman Goleman: 34:49

That is a different orientation.

Aaron Wolf: 34:51

That's exactly the word for exactly right. So recognizing what that means, then when you're thinking in terms of of conflicts. Westerners often talk about other cultures as being conflict avoiders. And they're not somebody described, it said we're not avoiding conflict, we're just working really hard towards harmony. It's a very different approach.

Hanuman Goleman: 35:15

Is that approach? It sounds like what you're saying is that one being non conflict, avoidant is actually moving towards conflict and the other is orienting towards the outcome of harmony. Is it that one is thinking in order to achieve some, some resolution we have to go through the difficult conflict and the other is, yeah, there

Aaron Wolf: 35:41

are a lot of places where conflict is seen as a community is owned by a community. And so it's not about the end of vigil, you know, we think about the individual and we want to punish them or isolate them, or when somebody has perpetrated something, it's about the individual. And in a lot of places, it's much more about the group. And so if there is a dispute, in many places, there's a formal ceremony of forgiveness, where the perpetrator will come to the party that they've aggrieved and formally asked for forgiveness. And so that's a way of, you know, when they, when they committed whatever act they committed, they took power away from this other party. And now this is an act of of giving that power back, asking for forgiveness, and to fix how it's been described to me as is a rant in the fabric of the community. That's how conflict is seen. And then after it happens, and and there's a meal and a formal ceremony. In some places, they'll never talk about it again, they just it's as if the conflict never ever took place. I think that's the kind of thing that we in the West could learn a lot from, I mean, think about what we could do with the ceremonies of reconciliation and forgiveness, where we celebrate together, recognizing the torn fabric of of our past, and trying to move forward into a healthier future.

Hanuman Goleman: 37:12

What really stands out for me about what you just said, is the humility that's integral in that approach. I wonder how to bring humility into a situation where that isn't the orientation of the people involved? Yeah,

Aaron Wolf: 37:28

that's probably the question of the age. Right. I mean, one of the things that I've noticed even really painful conversations here in the US, I mean, the the most contentious issues that portion or guns are now these horrible murders in in schools and at supermarkets. One of the approaches that I think is helpful is, is to perpetually remind us how much we have in common, especially around our shared values, I think so much of how we have the conversations, whether it's, it's social media, or actual media is so heavily emphasizing the positions, the things that divide us and pro gun anti gun, I'm red on blue, and that really is where we spent so much of the conversation. But as I mentioned before, an exercise I do both in, in facilitated processes and in the classroom, is I'll have people roleplay on opposite sides of the most contentious issues that there are, and I'll give them three minutes to find three things that they have in common, and people do instantly. And the fact that two things happen, one, in those conversations in other parts of training and workshops will also simulate triggering in the amygdala. And and there you can really, when somebody is hearing something they disagree with for the first time, it can really trigger you. What's interesting in these in these exercises, when the intention is to find commonality, the amygdala leaves you alone. And so your intention going into a conversation that helps to inform how you're going to react to it. And if your intention going in, is to learn is to is to find commonality, you can from the outset, have a healthier conversation. So often when you set out to have these conversations, it's to persuade, it's to overpower it's to win. And simply starting with self Humility is a way to have a much healthier conversation. But the other thing that happens is we're reminded over and over how much we do have in common. So I mentioned that the deep sanctity of life that both sides of the abortion debate, believe in deeply at their core, the concern about about global change, I think is much more universal than we give credit to where we differ is on how much is is human driven. And for so much of what we need to do it deeply doesn't matter. So let's focus on how we can react to the part we agree about that there is change happening, how do we make our cities more resilient? How do we make our coasts more resilient? How do we deal with with forest fires and floods and droughts? These are conversations we can and should be having, rather than focusing on the 10 or 15% that we differ on.

Hanuman Goleman: 40:26

Have you ever been a part of a conversation or negotiation that at the beginning, there was just these entrenched positions where they clearly all the sides wanted to win. And then there was a moment, this transformation that you're describing these in these dialogues, feels sort of shamanic to me, these moments of I have energy shift. And I wonder how how somebody who's so deeply dug into their position, if there's a story you can tell about humility, or their their position fading like that.

Aaron Wolf: 41:05

That happens all the time. Because because people start with their positions, right? They start with what it is they want. And that's the whole process is to move from, from what they want maybe to what they need to maybe what everybody needs to maybe figuring out justice and equity. So there's a truism and the facilitation world that the issue is never the issue. So when when Israelis and Palestinians are talking about water, for the Israelis, they're problem solving, you know, they have they have water for their basic needs they have. And so they're calculating what's the what's the most efficient use of water? What's the, how much do we invest in desalination, when the Palestinians are talking about it, they're talking about water is representing either physical water that they don't have literally in Gaza, not enough for sustainability, or even survival in some cases, or emotional water, water is tied to history and sovereignty and power and, and all of these things. And so that's what comes to the table when we're nominally talking about water. And one of the one of the more powerful things that we're rooted to is our position in a base. And so some of the grand debates or divisions that are going on right now is upstream countries in the developing world want to build dams, it's one of the ways to help bring people out of poverty and provide electricity and to do the things that you know, we in the in the West, spent most of the 40s and 50s doing, and now there's so much pressure against them to follow the same path. And the downstream countries feel very threatened by these upstream dams. So Ethiopia is building a huge dam that concerns Egypt and and Laos is building dams that concern Vietnam and turkeys building dams that concern Iraq. So this is this is happening all over the world. And in these workshops, this moment that you described, is when I put a map of their basin up without national borders, two things happen almost simultaneously. One is their loss. Wait, where am I I don't see any of my boundaries that I'm used to any of the walls that make me feel safe, any of the any of my touchstones that define my, my existence, and then a dawning recognition, and you can almost see it on their face, oh, my gosh, we are all connected, oh, my gosh, everything within this space and is connected to everything else. We're all tied to each other. And then you can you can work with that if if you can role play where the downstream countries play the upstream country, or we play with the basin without borders on the map. And we see what kinds of decisions we would make if we weren't rooted in our national interest. These are exactly the kinds of moments that happen enough so that we are able to move these dialogues forward.

Hanuman Goleman: 44:10

What does that moment feel like to you to see this change in people?

Aaron Wolf: 44:15

I don't know how to describe it, except its antithesis. So if you picture a Monday, I know here's a little kids I know, you know, what an ad is. An ad goes off and you feel like a concussion in your stomach. Right? You feel a little bit of percussion going off. Right? So that's that's the negative aspect of this. I think there's also the positive equivalent when this happens is that there's a little puff of positive energy that moves like a wave through a room, and you see it if somebody if somebody says something nice about the other side, and suddenly everybody is complimenting everybody else, when if somebody listens particularly well to somebody else, or reflects on what it must be like to be in somebody else's position. These are the kinds of things that are contagious, and that initial percussion resonates throughout the room. So I think it really is contagious in a way that's that

Hanuman Goleman: 45:14

addictive. So there's a physical shift that you experience. I think so. So this this episode is where we're, we're exploring conflict management within systems. I wonder if if there are systems that you've experienced, that have baked into the process, conflict management and a little bit more to that. There's something that you said you're looking for these moments of your being aware of the places where people are Having tension, whether it be fear or anger, or, or these emotions that are actually representing vulnerability that they're, they're protecting and it's that vulnerability, of course, it ended

Aaron Wolf: 46:03

at a very small scale. I think some aspects of this are embedded culturally and you know, their local communities all over the world that have this kind of idea that the relations in the community are a community value and that when these get torn or or or rent, it's incumbent on the community to to help heal. And so there's processes in Afghanistan, they call they call it a Loya Jirga where the group brings the elders bring people together to resolve issues there are there's this wonderful ceremony and and I learned about it in Palestine called a sofa. I think it's it's more Middle East wide. Where it's it's this ceremony of forgiveness. And the goal is a combination of justice and honor. Which is something that that, again, we don't have is the balance of, and I've seen it enacted I've seen it in Bedouin land courts, for example, where the judge will say something to one party, you're right. But can we come to an agreement where the other side can also take care of his family? Right? This is the kind of thing that I think is is this balance between the needs of the individual and the responsibility to the group. This happens. I don't know if it's scaling up. But I like to think that people who are doing this work, either around individuals or around communities, where they're helping people, I think that the key skills are one listening better. I think when you truly listen to people, you get well past the stories and the masks and the I think people who have deep mindfulness practices are used to doing this with themselves is where they listen deeply to themselves, they can get past their own kind of masks and boundaries and get at more of a truthful observations. I think it's true of other people too, if you listen very deeply to somebody else, you can understand and empathize much more with who they are, and what their their needs are. And so I think that that's what this would look like people who listen better to each other, who take more of a community approach to our aspirations. And you feel that, that justice and mercy or self and other or boundedness and openness are really not opposites, but rather two very complimentary attributions, both of which need to be respected, both in individuals and in society at large.

Hanuman Goleman: 48:59

What happened in this example, the Mekong basin,

Aaron Wolf: 49:03

they now have a clause in their agreement on how to manage transboundary environmental impacts, and they've been doing these collaborative workshops and, and it's just such a such a wonderful part of the world. And they've done so much, really to teach the rest of the world about these really, really difficult issues, even around areas of tension. So we're now working in Central Asia, and we're thinking will will take this group to the Mekong because they've done such a remarkable job in their own base. And I think they have a lot to teach people who are just crafting their own agreements as well.

Hanuman Goleman: 49:39

Thank you so much. Thanks, gentlemen.

Elizabeth Solomon: 49:50

Thanks for listening to our interview with Aaron Wolf. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. And tune in next time when we'll talk with Karen Ziggler about how she navigated conflicts as the senior pastor of an LGBTQ church in Greenwich Village of height of the AIDS epidemic.

Hanuman Goleman: 50:10

Before we go, it's time for Ask Dan Have you

Elizabeth Solomon: 50:15

ever wanted to ask Dan Goleman anything about emotional intelligence, mindfulness, meditation or leadership? Maybe purpose or life in general?

Hanuman Goleman: 50:25

If you've got questions, Dan has answers. Submit your question via voicemail at Keystep media.com/ask. Dan, your question could be selected and featured on an upcoming episode. Hi, Dan. How to love a no one says better.

Daniel Goleman: 50:45

I actually hear two different questions there. One has to do with self compassion. Loving yourself. And the other one has to do with knowing oneself. And I think that an answer to both of those has to do with acceptance with both knowing who you are, how you think how you react, what your emotions are, and being okay with that. Not trying to feel you need to fix it necessarily not feeling that there's something wrong with it, not judging it. But just being with it. Just finding a way to let it be accepted and to love yourself for how you are right now. Not love yourself for achieving some goal or changing but you just as you are right now

Kerry Seed: 51:46

that's our show. Special thanks to Cora and Dan, whose voices you heard at the top of our show, and to our guests, the good Dr. Aaron Wolf. You can find more about his work at trans Boundary Waters dot O R s t.edu. And if that link is too hard to remember, just check our episode notes on our website, first person plural.com. While you're there, you can check out our guest BIOS transcripts and resources mentioned in today's episode. You can also follow us on Instagram at Keystep media. If you enjoyed our discussion with Aaron Wolf, check out some of our past interviews. I'd recommend the episodes with Britton and Bennett and Akela Colas are none of this would be possible without our incredible team. Our hosts are Daniel Goleman, Hanuman Goleman and Elizabeth Solomon. Bryant Johnson creates the beautiful art you see with each episode. Our audio editor is Michelle Zipkin. Serena Kardon does marketing. Our music is by Ambro haga and ghost beats. I am Carrie seed. This podcast is sponsored by Keystep media, your source for personal and professional development materials focused on mindfulness, leadership and emotional intelligence. Next time, we'll dive deeper into conflict management with our guest, Karen Ziegler. Until then, take care of yourself and we'll talk soon