Peter Haberl: Attention is the Currency of Performance

This is the second conversation in our three part series on achievement, one of four self-management competencies in Dan Goleman’s framework of emotional intelligence.

Our guest, Peter Haberl, joined the United States Olympic Committee in 1998. In his current position as senior sport psychologist, he provides individual and team consultations and mental training sessions to various national team athletes with a specific specialization in team sports. Haberl has enjoyed the privilege of having worked at nine Olympic Games, four Pan American Games, and one Paralympic Games with U.S. athletes. Prior to joining the Olympic Movement in the U.S., Haberl played professional ice hockey in Austria. Born in Austria, Haberl received his bachelor’s degree in sports science from the University of Vienna, Austria. He later earned his master's degree in counseling and his Ed. D. in counseling psychology at Boston University. A licensed psychologist, Haberl focuses on mindfulness and ACT-based interventions. He enjoys using his daughter’s art work in his presentations.

In this episode, Peter Haberl joins Liz Solomon to discuss how US Olympic athletes, coaches and staff unlock achievement within the system of their teams.

Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com

Transcript

Unknown: 0:50

Is there something you'd say that you're pretty good at? I would say I'm good at dancing. I like to do ballet. Okay. Is there something in ballet dance specifically that you want to get better been working on to improve that? I want to work on my parallettes. For those that don't take any dance classes? What is a pair of wet a pair? What is a type of turd dance? Oh, okay. And why do you want to get better at doing parallettes? I want to get better at doing parallettes. Because if you're at a competition, and you want to get extra points that the judges might say you did something good. And then say bye, add extra points. Oh, okay. And how does it feel to get better at something? Or if you've been working on doing a parallel? How does it feel for you? It feels good to accomplish something because you've worked hard on it. And yeah.

Elizabeth Solomon: 1:53

Oh, okay.

Unknown: 1:55

Is there any advice for any future dancers out there that want to take a class or also working on their parallettes? What would you say to them? I would say, just practice and be patient. Because if you're not really patient, then maybe you would like, want to give up and stop working on it. Oh, that's a great advice. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us. You're welcome. Bye, bye.

Hanuman Goleman: 2:32

Hey, this is Hanuman Goleman. Hi there, this is the list of solid.

Daniel Goleman: 2:36

Hi, this is Daniel Goleman, you're listening to

Hanuman Goleman: 2:39

first person plural emotional intelligence and beyond. This is the second in a three part series about achievement orientation. And for this episode, we're looking at what achievement means in systems,

Daniel Goleman: 2:53

there's two things I like to say about that. One is the Dalai Lama urges everyone to do whatever they can to make the world a better place. Even if they won't live to see the fruits of their actions. Just as you say, the fruits may come way later than you know, after you're no longer around. The other is, I like very much putting the individual achievement in the context of the system is a system give you the causes and conditions that support that achievement, and lift it to the level of success or not. Because when we talk about achievement, I think we tend to look at the individual, not at the system context in which the individual is working, or operating. And you need both to come together.

Elizabeth Solomon: 3:39

I think about you know, I think about that for organizations to who are struggling right now with when the purpose movement, you know, saying how do I sort of let go of my fiscal or financial goals, these goals that my entire structure of my organization is built around upholding and supporting? How do I put those goals aside or focus on those secondarily to my social or societal goals? And that's a that's a that's a hard thing to change?

Daniel Goleman: 4:04

Well, I'm not sure it's either or, I'm thinking of like TOMS Shoes that gives away a pair of shoes for every pair you buy. Their model is profit and purpose, not profit or purpose. And I think most businesses that want to survive need to do both.

Hanuman Goleman: 4:24

This system that we're talking about specifically, this conversation is with Peter Gabriel, who works with Olympic teams.

Elizabeth Solomon: 4:32

Peter has been with the United States Olympic Committee since 1998. In his current position as senior sports psychologist, he provides individual and team consultations and mental training sessions to various national team athletes with a specific specialization in team sports. Peter has enjoyed the privilege of having worked at nine Olympic Games for Pan American Games, and one Paralympic games with us athletes. Prior to joining the Olympic movement in the US haberle played professional ice hockey in Austria. Born in Austria, Peter received his bachelor's degree in Sport Science from the University of Vienna. He later earned his master's degree in counseling, and is ed in Counseling Psychology at Boston University. A licensed psychologist Peter focuses on mindfulness and act based interventions, which is an acronym for Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. Welcome to our show today, Peter, we're so excited to have you here.

Peter Haberl: 5:34

Thanks for having me, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth Solomon: 5:36

How do you talk about yourself and what you do my elevator

Peter Haberl: 5:39

pitch is I help athletes understand how the mind works in competition so they can work with it. That obviously then begs the question How does the mind work? And metaphorically, the mind works as a thought and emotion producing factory that comes with a built in thief. And this built in thief steal something that's really precious for athletes who precious for Olympic athletes. And when I asked my Olympic athletes Hey, what is it, the thief steals? I pretty consistently get the same answer. Pretty much everybody says the thief steals confidence. So there's this sense of in order to be successful, I have to be confident at the Olympic Games. And I actually disagree with that statement, the thief steals something that's much more precious for for the athletes, the thief steals attention. To me, attention is the currency of performance. So when when athletes perform well, at the games, what is always present is their ability to be present to be focused, to be in the moment. And that actually can be done irrespective of what feelings are shown.

Elizabeth Solomon: 7:04

I love that distinction between focus and confidence. One of the ways that Dan talks about achievement orientation and his model is that it's not really just about getting things done for the sake of getting things done right or winning for the sake of winning. But it's really about cultivating clarity, determination, and resilience. And I'm wondering, you know, as you're talking about focus, and presence, how that helps with these pieces around clarity, determination, and resilience, and how you see that playing out with your athletes,

Peter Haberl: 7:39

determination, charity, resilience, through my lens, those are attitudes of mind, so to speak, and those attitudes of minds is something I can cultivate. And in my environment annual begins, you know, speaking of achievement, getting things done, there is this great desire, obviously, to get someplace to get to big gains, and to win a medal, and then to win the gold medal. So that outcome orientation is always present, and to a certain extent, has to be present. But that outcome orientation also comes with a dark side. And the dark side is again, that it can undermine one's ability to stay present. Because the mind that thought and emotion producing factory can easily get trapped in Am I actually on track towards that goal? Or am I running into obstacles wherever the obstacle may be? And when I run into an obstacle, running to D tool, so to speak, clarity, resilience, and determination are what's called for and where they need to navigate that obstacle.

Elizabeth Solomon: 9:03

What are some of the obstacles that you find that athletes specifically at the Olympic level run into?

Peter Haberl: 9:10

Well, the first one that I will come back to, again, is just this myth that I have to have positive feeling to be successful, right. So this idea of when I perform well, at the games, I'm in a positive state of mind, I'm relaxed and confident, I don't have any doubt whatsoever. I believe in myself. In my experience, that is a complete myth, A and B, it's actually rather counterproductive. Confidence is a feeling state. And like all feeling states, they're very fleeting. And that one's leading to and at the games, particularly that state, a may not materialize or be may disappear. And then when you think, then I have to generate the right feelings to be successful, then you're actually in big trouble, as opposed to, can I be in charge of my attention, irrespective how I feel? And then can I take actions that are perhaps guided by determination and resilience?

Elizabeth Solomon: 10:18

You're starting to touch on something that I'm both like fascinated and perturbed by, which is what I call spiritual bypassing, which I think shows up sometimes in this realm of positive psychology, right? And it touches on what you're saying of like, we cultivate our reality through manifesting continuous positive thoughts. Right. And so I think you're touching on something that I think is really true, which is that there's a shadow side to kind of forcing ourselves into one way of feeling or thinking and sometimes that is that we deny things that are actually under the surface are we like we cease to be an integrated and whole person? I'm wondering what what you think athletes, for the most part do not want to feel at the Olympic Games?

Peter Haberl: 11:01

I actually asked him that question. How do you not want to feel that the games? And I do, they're sort of experientially, so I put, you know, 50 mood cards on the floor. And I asked him, just pick the cards that capture how you don't want to feel, you know, positive and unpleasant, more, say so. So the whole range of emotions. And across the boards, they will pick, they will take mood states don't want to feel they're uncomfortable. They don't want to feel pressured. They don't want to feel tense. They don't want to feel nervous. They don't want to feel anxious. They don't want to feel afraid. And then ask them, okay, so why do you not want to feel this way? And again, the answer I get 100% of the time is, well, if I feel this way, I will not perform well. Alright, that makes sense. So then I'll show him some quotes from athletes. And this is my favorite one here is the athlete goes. It's the only way to describe it. It feels like a gallows. So it feels like you're about to be hung. Right before the lobby final, right? Do you want to feel like this guy? The answer is no, I don't want to feel like this guy. All right, that makes sense. Okay, so we're gonna show you who this guy is. And this guy happens to be a guy named Chris Hawaii, actually surplus Hawaii because he got knighted by the British, or the queen is a British track cyclist who was one six gold medals. At the will begins describing how he felt before his first Final Adobe games. This was in 2004. In Athens, in an event called the kilos, this is a time trial, 1000 meters on the track. And he happened to be the reigning world champion. And if you'd really world champion, you get to go last in the event. So you see everybody else's time clock in. And for you the last four guys broke up can the world record right before him right? Before he has to go. So he has to process all that. So in that moment, it felt really, really stressful for him, right? But that feeling is actually so normal. Because if the outcome matters to you, and the outcome is uncertain. Guess what emotional states will show up, almost by definition, uncomfortable once we feel confident when we have certainty. But the Olympic Games, they serve up uncertainty. And then he added meaning piece to it. Right? This means that we're also them, they've trained for this event for 12 years, or longer sometimes, then uncomfortable feelings will show up. So can I be open to those uncomfortable feelings and not get derailed by them. And Chris Hoy actually is all about our feet. He talks about when he felt like the gallows what came next. So he talks about, he was sitting on the saddle of the bike, adjusting his helmet, gripping the handlebar, stepping into the pedals, hearing the countdown of the clock, 10 987, and so forth. So all those things, our sense perceptions, so we tunes into his sense perceptions to be present. And again, he can do that in the presence of uncomfortable feelings. All of a sudden, those feelings actually will not matter anymore.

Elizabeth Solomon: 14:37

What you're talking about is really I'm thinking about flow state. We want just enough stress, right to sort of create that sense of alertness, aliveness, that sense of wanting, but not so much that we tip over into a place of feeling completely flooded and overwhelmed. And I'm wondering how you talk about that with your athletes of what the right amount of discomfort is,

Peter Haberl: 14:59

when I as an athlete, think at the games I need to be in this flow state, right? Then I am grasping for something that might actually not happen. And was interested in seeing I think, from this, you know, achievement motivation perspective that you mentioned, is because the outcome is so important for the athlete, the outcome is so tangible work, it's so close they want and so much that that desire for the outcome can actually impair again, their ability to be present. And with that comes loss desire. Again, I should be in this flow state, right. And then there's this misunderstanding that in flow, I actually won't have uncomfortable feelings,

Elizabeth Solomon: 15:43

right. The very nature of the word kind of implies a false reality. It's so interesting. Yeah,

Peter Haberl: 15:48

yes. And I think I think so. It's a mistake that my field makes in trying to sell mindfulness as a tool to get into flow, add up games. To me, there's a fundamental misunderstanding of mindfulness. It's not about feeling a certain way, I want to ask

Elizabeth Solomon: 16:07

you about something that you brought up. In our first discussion, when we had our pre interview, and you were talking about, you brought your athletes on retreat. And I would love to have you share that story with our listeners, and tell us a little bit about that experience

Peter Haberl: 16:24

is the women's women's water polo team. And just little bit of the history, the team has won a gold medal in 2012. In London, and the gold medal in 2016. In Rio, with the same coach, I've had the privilege to work with Coach editor, Korea now for since 2008. So long time. And we've always done some mindfulness work with with the team. And over the years, I always kind of, in a joking way, suggested to Adam, hey, wouldn't it be cool to take the team to a salad retreat. And he always blew me off, there's this like, really crazy idea, there's no way we're going to do that. And, you know, just think about it, like, you know, which coach can give you seven to 10 days of training time to go to a place and just sit and not do anything at all right? But from my own experience, you know, having having done sand retreats, I just thought this is like a training camp for the mind. And this idea of a training camp, that's obviously the language of the athlete, right. They're familiar with training camps, where you can modify volume and intensity of a training load. And I think one way to look at the sun retreat is to look at this qualification of volume and intensity of working with with your mind. So when we won in 2016, you know, another gold medal, then we win two world championships. So we know going to Tokyo will be the favorite. And when you're the favorite, one thing that happens is a particular mental state comes up. And that is precisely confidence. And you have this this aura of invincibility, and this aura of inevitability around you. And when Adam and I spoke, you know, we both knew that that feeling of confidence, and that aura of invincibility would get tested at the games, for sure. No matter how many games we win prior to it, we thought a test would come. And we would then face very different emotions, emotions that perhaps we hadn't felt in a long time. Because we haven't lost a lot. So just to give an idea, I think going into the Tokyo Games, our record was Ada, one with one ADA games last one in that time span of three years. So we thought, that aura of invincibility, that aura of inevitability would get challenged. And we want to prepare for that. So somewhat to my surprise in 2018. Adam said, Peter, let's do it. Meaning, let's do the retreat. You were like finally. Yeah, finally, Yes, finally. But I was also I was very scared. And also very scared. Just because of this wasn't something that the athletes were going to volunteer for, and say, oh, yeah, cool. Let's go, let's go do a mindfulness retreat for seven days in silence, without phones, without connection to the outside world, and without talking to each other. So I got nervous about that, you know, how they would sort of handle it. With in our preparation, we'd always done some kind of physical challenge. Like in 2012, we spent a day with the Navy Seals and Coronado in 2016 2015, we hiked Pikes Peak here in Colorado Springs. So when you're 14,000 foot mountain, but those challenges were more physical. This time, we're looking more at a mental challenge. And one thing that was really fascinating is when when we arrived at our retreat setting, we sort of created our own retreat here in the mountains in Colorado Springs place called bison peak. When the players arrived, you could tell they were nervous. They were intimidated. They were worried. And they were scared. And Eric actually talked about it that he hadn't seen them feel that way, in a long, long time. Right. And then we actually both looked at each other as is. Now we're here. Let's go. And we felt the same way. about the games, right? So, yes, we can feel really these unpleasant emotions, and then then basically get to work. So we spent seven days at the sushi place in silence, sitting, walking, eating by yourself, doing your yoga chores, all that good stuff. Having wonderful guides enjoyed Brewer. And then at the end of the seven days, we again added a physical challenge to the event. We climbed 314 years in one day,

Elizabeth Solomon: 21:24

what was the outcome of that experience for the participants? What were some of their feedback and their comments? Well,

Peter Haberl: 21:30

the goal is we had said, we want to pay the team for the stones that were ahead, they will come and ahead, we didn't know we had COVID on the horizon, we didn't know that the games will be postponed, we know all the players had to add on another year of training, you know, to get to the games. So we didn't foresee those charges. And then then at the games, in our third game, in Round Robin, we actually lost to Hungary 10 to nine. So not a second loss. And it was a long time. And the team that we had last year in a long time. And as we were debriefing this afterwards, as the coaches were debriefing this afterwards, with with the players after the game, was really interesting, because a they talked about the pressure they felt as the favorite. And then there was also this tener that, hey, we're at the Olympic Games, we should just enjoy ourselves. And we thought, this is exactly what we prepared for, right? This desire now to feel the right way. So for us, it was worth remembering that we have prepared for this moment for this exchange. And we want to be open to these emotions, and not actually grasp for a particular mental state, such as joy, because truth be told, if you're the favorite at the Olympic Games, if you expect it to win, Joy hardly ever shows up. Right? So then grasping for joy would be a mistake. And then we met again that evening. And again had a conversation about that. And then in the end, Adam had this big whiteboard in his dorm space, so to speak. And then he wrote a few words on the board. And the rules were play the right way. And that may sound meaningless here, or maybe trivial. But when he wrote that on the board, the players knew exactly what he meant. The players knew exactly how that would translate to action in the water action in the pool, as opposed to how they were supposed to feel playing the right way. Right has everything to do with how they have trained themselves, how they play together, how they help each other, how they're connected in the water, how they fight each other, and how they fight for each other in the water. So they knew exactly what this meant. And really, to violence. This was like this perfect behavioral cue that Adam gave them. So it was just brilliant coaching really, right. And by giving them that play the right way that showed a way out of you have to feel the right way, which again, through my lens would have been a trap.

Elizabeth Solomon: 24:31

I'm curious as we're talking about team sports and team achievement. So thinking about a sport like swimming, for example, right, where individuals are part of a team, and yet they're also competing against one another. I'm curious, just to talk a little bit about that tension between being teammates achieving towards a goal, and also being competitors, or individuals who are vying for the same price, this section

Peter Haberl: 24:57

that I find quite fascinating, and I'm gonna have attention to you. But America is often described as a very selfish country, right? Where you just focus on yourself, get rich, and so forth. But interestingly enough, if you look at the Olympic Games, America is the best team sport country. So nobody wins more team sport medals at the games, then you asked us. So what I'm trying to get at is one thing that we figured out in the team sport side, when when we do it right. Is is that balance between valuing individualism, because that's actually also necessary to perform on teams, and then valuing that connection and that sacrifice for the greater good of the team. So one thing we do with the water polo team is we have this tradition There's cultural tradition and call it that the head ceremony when we win the game, we have a player, at some point in time was rewarded for having made a contribution to the team's performance. And then this player who has the hat, she will pass it on to somebody else on the team. And so she will pick a teammate, who has made a significant contribution to the success of the team in this last game, right. And what's been fun with this team is over the years is they have gotten so good at this ceremony that before they actually named the player that got a name, they go through half the team, and praising them for something they did in the game. So they're just very alert and in tune with the contributions teammates make, and what that matters, the team and in the process really sort of create a culture of fondness and appreciation. That's just really important to think, for teams to be successful.

Elizabeth Solomon: 26:49

Mm hmm. Certainly. And I'm thinking of all of our listeners out there who work in the organizational space, right, and are often thinking about how do we recognize people in a way that both honors their individuality but also honors their contribution to something larger? I want to ask about, you know, what do you feel like you learned thinking about Simone Biles experience and Tokyo. I'm curious to hear from you, Peter, what you sort of took away from that, and how that influenced the way you help athletes prepare for Beijing?

Peter Haberl: 27:19

Well, first of all, I don't know Simone, and I don't work with her. So this is just sort of my view from a distance here. But what I took away from her experiences was other athletes in the role of favorite is the importance of preparing for an onslaught of unpleasant emotional states at the games, A and B. I think there's a sense of that, I think Simone spoke about this very candidly, and courageously of having a sense of, I have to do this for somebody else. So the sense of, I have to win, for my country, or for my culture, for my family, whatever it may be for the fans, right, that athletes can get trapped in. So it again comes back this idea of the mind as a thought and emotion producing factory athletes, when they start out in the sport, almost always, they do it because they enjoy the sport, they enjoy the being of it. And then what changes in the environment of the games is the meaning that we give to the medal. So if I win the medal, everybody in my surroundings will be happy, and I will be happy. So the psychologist Paul Bloom at Yale says that we are essentialist that we tend to give something an essence, that actually might not be there. And I think we for sure do that with the Olympic medal, you know, we give it an essence. So if I win the medal that I am somebody, and this gets back to me to, again, your comment earlier on about resilience and determination. So what I mean by that is resilience determination are basically value propositions they are about how to carry myself, right. So goals are about getting something getting somewhere. Values are about how do I want to be in this moment? How do I want to carry myself in this moment? What do I want to stand for in this moment? So goals are a destination, values or a direction. And what's important for me now in preparation for Paris, with my teams against being very mindful of how easy it is to get sucked into the outcome goal, and to counterbalance that with an ongoing conversation about values, right, so what do you want to stand for? So let's say I want to be determined, right? He says, I want to be determined, that translates into specific actions in a moment to moment basis. And I can use those actions again, to aid the anchors of the present moment, but also then guide my behavior, respect, irrespective of how I feel. So when the onslaught of emotions comes at the games, for an athlete, can I be open to that? And then not get caught up in the outcome, but remind myself of how I want to carry myself in the space.

Elizabeth Solomon: 30:42

Now there's something that I'm thinking of as you're talking, which is, and it's, you know, I'm sort of tracking the parallels between what you're talking about in that order. conversational space, right. And the difference between an organization that is hyper focused on winning or profit. So however you want to define that, and an organization that is actually more focused on a mission and values, and thinking about how they show up each day in the marketplace and with their employees. And I'm curious, you know, I think it's quite easy. And I say this, you know, in a very self effacing way, I see it in myself to sort of think, to live in that mindset of like, if I get X, the metal, what have you, then I'll be happy, then I will have achieved then I'll have some sort of mythical state of being that I've been aiming for. And I'm just wondering, when you see people who do you know, when the gold medal reached that goal, what are some of the emotional states that you see them go through afterwards?

Peter Haberl: 31:43

Well, very often, it's elation. Sometimes, it's also a sense of relief, right. And sometimes there's this sense of desolation, will carry forward. And that's where it can get difficult to think for Olympic athletes. Because the after right, emotions, they come and they go, they don't stay. So the unpleasant ones don't stay. The pleasant ones don't stay either, right. And the more the more I want to cling to the pleasant ones, the more likely they are to sort of move on, right? And then there's danger of forgetting what actually generated those pleasant emotions. And very often what generates them is some specific actions that you as an athlete took over a very long period of time. And again, it's worth doing deck that question of what we want to stand for, and what are my values is an important question for athletes to ponder. And it's not something where you just sort of come up with a quick answer, it's something I think you want to sit with it a bit, and chew one of the bit and sort of see what arises.

Elizabeth Solomon: 32:59

It's like your identity becomes entwined with the, quote, unquote, succeeding, and I really hear you encouraging people to think like, how do you want to show up as a leader, as an athlete in your sport that actually has nothing to do with whether or not you win the medal. It's about how you came into the game, the attitude with which you came into the game, the values and how you live that out and what you demonstrated. I'm wondering how the larger US Olympic team observes the needs of its high achieving athletes, and how would you even cite those needs? How would you talk about those?

Peter Haberl: 33:35

Well, I think first and foremost, again, it's this idea of, you know, looking at the athlete as a human being right, rather than a machine that produces metals. And I think, you know, one thing that my organization has done quite well over the last few years that you've emphasized mental health, and put a whole staff together to address a that need and also just to have a conversation about it. And we certainly seen a lot of athletes also having that conversation that I think actually reverberates, you know, through society at large then, because I think, historically, for a long time, that's not a conversation that we had, right, that you can talk about mental health, just like your physical health, and that you can take steps to address mental health. And there's actually courageous to do so. Right. And again, obviously, Simone Biles has done some excellent work in that space. I think by addressing that,

Elizabeth Solomon: 34:34

how does the team create a culture of tenacity?

Peter Haberl: 34:37

That's a good question that gets back again at this idea of values. So her values defined, enact values are defined as a desired global quality of an ongoing action. Right, so desired, Sunday choose okay. It's not a rule that someone imposes on you. It's something that you choose. So you use the verb tenacity, tenacious, right? Tenacious, I can choose to be tenacious, in say, you know, with a whirlpool team in the pool, I can choose to be tenacious, in the strength conditioning session. I can choose to be tenacious in a seven day silent retreat. When my mind says I don't want to be here. Why are we doing this? Right? I can choose to be tenacious.

Elizabeth Solomon: 35:26

I'm so curious. I'm thinking about that inner critic and thinking about, you know, the life stories of your athletes. To what degree do some of your athletes think that that is like innate, something that they can identify having lived with their entire lives? To what degree does that come from external forces such as the environment or cultural messaging? I'm just I'm curious about that.

Peter Haberl: 35:47

I think a big part of my job is to normalised the internal critic, one of my favorite quotes is from, from Rafael Nadal, from his autobiography, and he goes on what a battle hardest in a tennis match is the quiet the voices inside my head. That's the critic to shut everything out. But the contest itself, that's nearing potential to concentrate every atom of my being on the point I'm playing. Let's focus on the moment now as the tension, currency of performance. If I made a mistake on the prior point, this is where the critic comes in. Right? He says, Let it go. So thinking about the past isn't going to help. He goes on, if a thought of victory suggest itself, crush it. So you have an athlete who's aware, there's an internal dialogue going on with a thought and most specifically does all day long or mind offers of thoughts that were very simple exercise to prove the point, or grab a stopwatch. And I tell my athletes, once I press start, don't have any more thoughts. And the moment the first stop pops up, just raise your right hand, right? Ready, say go. Three seconds in the hands pop up the first arcane and innovate it all, on its own, didn't choose to have it, you have no control over your thoughts, right. So we have an athlete here, no doubt, all aware of that internal dialogue. Where if I get sucked into that, it's actually not helping. So with that awareness, right, then I can choose where to put my attention. In his case, concentrate every atom of your being on the point you're playing. So he wants to see the tennis ball. That's different for Simone Biles. That's different for a wrestler, that's different for a water polo player, but they all know where they want to put their attention, when it comes time to compete. So in attention to the kinds of performance and then of course, stuff happens, mistake in the past thoughts will come up as the factory does, can now be aware of that, that pool into the past, or being hijacked in the future, right? A thought of victory. It's a pleasant thought. It's a nice feeling. But it's not going to help him play the next point. What matters is going to come back and focus on the next point, right? In order to do that, I got to see how that thought is trying to hijack me into the future. You know, I'd

Elizabeth Solomon: 38:22

love to have you tell me when you're looking at a team and maybe it's in training, or maybe it's in competition itself, and you're seeing a team of people where everybody is focused on that present moment, right? Crushing any focus on the goal, and also not letting thoughts of the past intrude, in that present moment attune to one another, working as a kind of Symphony, what is the feeling that you have, as someone witnessing that?

Peter Haberl: 38:47

Will you use an interesting phrase, there's symphony. That's what it feels like. It feels like all the notes are being hit just the right way. And it flows. And it's connected. It's this rhythm to it, right? That you see on the team, and then it becomes quite magical. And I think like for the water polo team, there were moments like that in the gold medal game, when when everything just clicked right off the get go. And again, that comes again after years and years of training, actually. But then when it happens, it's almost palpable, tangible, and I think symphonies really great word to capture. They're

Elizabeth Solomon: 39:33

also curious just to talk a little bit about the role of trust in team achievement. And I'm wondering if you can share with us any stories of where a betrayal of trust has occurred and how you have helped your athletes overcome that?

Peter Haberl: 39:50

I think the marriage researcher John Gottman has really helpful model I think that also applies to leadership in team sports. You know, he says that all relationships have conflict. And there are some of us who are masters at conflict, and some of us are disasters, the disasters of conflict, they're causing the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling. And then we have the antidotes, causing, you know, a soft startup culture of appreciation, taking responsibility, and then having the ability to to regulate your emotions to self soothe. So I think we can actually practice those those elements and again, we can become aware of the horseman, so sometimes trust will get violated, right? That's a moment of conflict and trust in a way is to me is like it onion in many layers, we can take layers off, and we can put layers on. And over the course of a season, right, we can, again work on building that onion, and adding layers to it. And if there's a violation of trust, to have a conversation about it, right, so part of my job, my work is to create a space where the athletes can talk with each other, rather than me talking at them. So very often, I will try to create that space for them, where they can speak with each other. And then we can build on those layers of onions. So it doesn't get to a place where it becomes irreparable. So it's very much a proactive approach, as opposed to a reactive approach to something that happened.

Elizabeth Solomon: 41:40

My last question for you is just, you know, thinking again, about this experience of identifying as an athlete identifying as someone who achieves identifying as the winner of a gold medal, I wonder if you can tell us a little bit what happens for many athletes when they're done competing?

Peter Haberl: 41:59

Well, from a research perspective, that depends a bit whether that transition is is voluntary or involuntary. So involuntary is you know, you have an injury and you have to retire. Involuntary is when you get cut from a team, and you don't make your Olympic Games, you know, want your use when you might reach your goals, and then choose to move on, so forth. So I think it's no different than you might see in the organizational space, you know, when someone gets laid off or chooses to leave an organization, that piece plays into it, what will come next A and B, as a sort of transition all of these athletes identity, you know, who am I? Right? And what's helpful there is a to understand you're more than just an athlete, right? That's just sort of a label that you have. In from a mindfulness perspective, there's just this idea of a selfie you may have, but that idea of self is actually not that real. Leading and then you have fleeting, yes, fleeting, right. And then coming back again, to the values question, you know, I'm thinking back to in 2019, I had the chance to be in Cape Town with one of my sports. And at the end of the tournament, I got to visit Robben Island, where Nelson Mandela was incarcerated for, I think, 18 or 27 years in prison. And then I'm reading this this article in The New York Times where they shared a letter, Nelson Mandela had written to his wife Winnie, talking about how he used the cell as his meditation space to sort of investigate how he would define success, a, and what's good about him. So when were qualities or strength, or good about him that he wanted to cultivate. And obviously, when you're in prison for that long, with no hope of ever getting out, right? To hear him sort of share their story and using their time to reflect on himself to reflect on what he wanted to stand for, right? How he wanted to say educate his fellow inmates about politics, how he was going to, you know, cultivate a relationship with with the the jailers, and learn their language, their culture, so we communicate with them. So for me, that story, he came back to the values piece right in reconnecting with that, and then again, using values to guide one's behavior, rather than using some kind of identity to guide your behavior. Right. So he didn't see himself as a prisoner. As opposed to something really different. And I think that's also important for athletes to keep in mind, right? How did I carry myself or, you know, thinking of the great Norwegian Olympian, you weren't all of course, who you know, after winning three gold medals, retired and then form the humanitarian organization right to play. Right. So there's much that transfers, I think, from their experience as an athlete to the next step in their careers.

Elizabeth Solomon: 45:20

Peter, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you want to add or that you feel that we haven't touched on in our conversation that feels important?

Peter Haberl: 45:29

I will just come back. One last thing here for me again, you know, the thought and emotion losing factory right, one thing that factory offers up often this doubt. So again, to come back to a quote in the story. So here the athlete goes, I've been doubtful in all the 11 years that I've played here. I've been doubtful in all the years that I've played. So again, I asked, Hey, do you want to be this guy? doubtful, 11 years? The answer is no, I don't want to be that guy. Why don't you want to be that guy? What that guy isn't going to be successful? Can I reveal who said that? Right? This one Rafael Nadal, talking about the French Open that that time he had won nine out of 11 times. And now he's going 30 times and analysis, I have doubt every day. And he says, gold, so good for you in life, doubt as uncomfortable as unpleasant yet he says he has all the time. And the good for you. Because he understands when he has doubt, doesn't take the outcome for granted. Right. So you never seen a doll under estimating an opponent. He never seen at all not prepared for a competition. So this is someone who has learned to understand and work with his mind very, very skillfully. And that's that's, you know, I think that's worthwhile working with and working Yeah. Because doubt will come up on this journey that athletes have, and that I'm sure many of the listeners will have, as well,

Elizabeth Solomon: 47:11

as I heard you tell that story. I feel like I just made a little bit of space for my own self doubt in my heart. And it was a really, I felt the impact of that. It's like, Ah, that feels relieving, just to be able to welcome that in as part of the experience of being human. Thank you so much, Peter, really appreciate you being here with us today on the show. And it's such a joy to hear about the work that you do and your particular approach to it.

Peter Haberl: 47:38

Thank you for having me. It's your pleasure talking with you.

Unknown: 47:50

Good afternoon, Mr. Goldman. I'm Elena katanya. I'm an Italian teacher. I strongly believe in emotional intelligence. How can I use emotional intelligence with my students? Even when we deal with let me say boring stuff? Like grammar or something like that? How can I have their attention through emotional intelligence? Thank you very much for this opportunity. Bye. Bye,

Daniel Goleman: 48:30

Elena. I love the question. And later remember, emotions are contagious and they're contagious from the most powerful person in the room outward. And use the teacher are the most powerful person so your emotional state matters to your students. If you're bored by the subject, they're going to be bored by the subject. If you love the subject, if you show that enthusiasm, no matter what the subject is, they'll pick up the feeling.

Kerry Seed: 49:06

Thanks for listening to first person plural EI and beyond. Do you have a question for Dan Goleman he wants to hear from you. Go to First Person plural.com/ask Dan, that's first person plural.com/ask. Dan, to record your question now. While you're there, follow us on social media and sign up for our newsletter. And be sure to tune in next time when our guests will be Sasha Dingell. She's a professional athlete. And as the founder and director of mountain mind project. Dingle speaks to us about how she reconciles the tension between her goals and other factors in the moment, like her health. We care about supporting you on your ei journey, and helping to bridge the gap between theory and application that starts by better understanding you and the resources you're looking for. If this resonates with you, and if you have six minutes to spare, please take our audience and emotional intelligence insights survey. You can find it at Keystone media.com/e ai survey. That's Keystep media.com/ei survey. We promise to take your insights to heart. You'll have our deep gratitude and a free copy of the leading with empathy eBook, a collective guide that explores different applications and facets of empathy. This show is brought to you by our CO hosts Dan Goleman, Hanuman Goleman and Elizabeth Solomon, and is sponsored by Keystep. Media, your source for personal and professional development materials focused on mindfulness leadership and emotional intelligence. Special thanks to Isabella whose voice you heard at the top of the show, and today's guest, Dr. Peter haberle. For guest BIOS transcripts and resources mentioned in today's episodes, check out our episode notes on our website. First Person plural.com. This episode was written and produced by Elizabeth Solomon and me Carrie seed audio production by Michelle Zipkin. Episode art and production support by Brian Johnson. Music in this episode includes tiny footsteps in the snow by bio unit. Norma by Monplaisir. And our theme music is by Amber ohata. Until next time, be well